Re: high dietary cholesterol = high blood cholesterol?

From: Dunne E. Dawe (never_at_never.again)
Date: 11/04/04 

Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:57:08 +0800

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:30:28 +0100, "Mirek Fídler" <cxl@volny.cz>
posted:

>> >Can be. There are thin TypeII diabetics, or thin people with high TG.
>>
>> Yes but much fewer than the fat ones.
>
>Nevertheless it brings chicken egg question back. Are we overweight first or
>insulin resistant first?

As we have populations of thin people who have no insulin resistance;
and if those members then go eat too much in another country say, they
get insulin resistance, the answer is clear to me.

>> >Yes. Anyway, you should never understimate genetics.
>>
>> Absolutely, although it tends to get forgotten because you can't do a
>> lot about it, but did you notice when Asians go to America, they get
>> all the American diseases of affluence?
>
>Depends on study...

Can you show me a study that refutes this commonly observed
phenomenon? All the ones I've seen show what I said.

>> Yes. There is bound to be a genetic component, but then perhaps too a
>> dietary component? What happens to Japanese smokers who move to
>> America?
>
>Interesting question. Any sources?

Nope, just a idle curiosity :-)

>> >> Fat store status is surely an artefact of energy balance.
>> >
>> >Nobody argues this.
>>
>> Well I've been trying to show this to someone here recently with
>> little success. Perhaps my explanations are not up to scratch.
>
>Well, I believe that tcomeau formulates his posts in a very unfortunate way
>in the first place...

Hadn't noticed. I just find him tiring as he asks for explanations and
then when you supply one, with considerable effort, he either comes
back with personal abuse, or totally ignores it for a while and then
comes back with more questions as if no-one had responded to his
earlier queries. I think he is either playing us for fools for some
reason, or has a personality problem.

>> >> But anyway, why must I accept that a "high fat diet is effective for
>> >> weight loss" when I claim that fatty acid problems are an artifact of
>> >> being overweight. What is the connection? I can't see it, I'm afraid.
>> >
>> >You have suggested that improvement of lipid profiles on low-carb is
>caused
>> >by weight-loss. So you have actually admitted that high-fat diet is
>> >effective, did not you? :)
>>
>> Not quite. What I tried to say was that the dyslipidaemia from
>> overweight does not occur if the overweight is avoided. When you do
>> have the dyslipidaemia, weight loss and carb avoidance will both help
>> to normalise it. Is that different?
>
>Is it so hard to accept that you can eat high-fat diet not counting calories
>and experience weight-loss? :))))

Yes :-) Especially as it has never been observed to happen :-)

>> Yeah, but what were the controls? That nurses study looked at nurses
>> on an atrocious American diet, apparently. OK as far as it goes, so
>> long as you don't try to take it any further.
>
>I am not speaking about nurses study here. There are dozens of controlled
>short to medium term clinical studies, studying effects of dietary
>composition on various lipid parameters like HDL, TG, LDL density etc... and
>they all show consistent picture: Glycemic load always increases TG, lowers
>HDL and decreses LDL particle size. You can even turn low-risc pattern A
>profile people (large LDL particles, low risc for CAD) into high risc
>pattern B by low-fat diet - it is well documented.

And these people who were transformed have never been overweight and
have always exercised strenuously every day?
Seems strange that you say this and yet there are billions of Asians
who don't have any problem from very high carb diets.

>> BTW, only overweight "westernised" Indians are in trouble.
>
>I do not think this is correct - not from what I have read. See, each time
>when nutrition theory does not match reality we always see such ad-hoc
>analyses.

For thousands of years Indian peasants have been quite healthy. Only
since the advent of bottled cooking oil have we got the epidemic of
CVD and diabetes. By "westernised" I meant eating too much packaged
refined fats and doing much less exercise. Cars, TV, and too much
food.

>I simply do not believe that Indians are more westernized than Japanesse.

Depends what you mean by westernised, see above. Yes, Japanese diet
has not westernised as much as many Indians, but where western diets
are adopted by Japanese, they get all the western problems, I thught.

>> Too much refined cooking oils for one thing.
>
>Well, perhaps. Wolfbrother would whole-heartly agreed with you here :)

That's a downer then :-)

>> >Well, I think you do not ask the right questions:
>> >
>> >Why do we overeat?
>>
>> Animal drive for survival. Why do we screw? :-)
>
>So why are some people not overeating? They have less animal drive for
>survival?

Yes. Biological variation. Some cultures train more self-control in
the members. Some cultures link eating with psychological comfort.
That's why I eat when upset :-)

>And even the most overweight people have moment while they eat when they
>are, at least for a short moment, satisfied.

See above. Lack of self-control, depression, eating to assuage this
depression. Vicious cycle.

>What is it that makes you
>satisfied and what makes you satisfied sooner and for a longer period of
>time?

Self-esteem, psychological well-being, achievement.

>> >and/or
>> >
>> >What kind of food are we overeating?
>>
>> The kind with calories in it.
>> Simple :-)
>
>And that is? Given that you are unable to absorb more than 200g of
>fat/protein each day, but almost unlimited number of refined carbs?

Huh? Where did you get that limit? Given aclimation, you can absorb
almost as much as you can get in your stomach.

>Do you think that people are fat because they eat too much meat?

Doesn't matter. Too many calories will make you fat.

>I know some fat people and all of them are fat because of "franken-food"
>(all those sweet sticks) and because of overconsumtion of baked goods.

And sumo wrestlers and weight lifters are fat because of all the eggs
and steaks they eat?

>Nobody that I know is overeating unprocessed meat (cooking excluded :) - it
>just seems that our bodies have well established sense for calories of some
>food, but some of us are totally screwed when confrontated with quickly
>absorbed carbs.

Of course, but these folk are a minority. Most folk can eat much more
than they choose to.

>That said, hard physical activity can avoid most bad effects (but probably
>not all) of those quick carb calories, but not everybody is able to exercise
>for 40 hours a week.

Then they should choose to not eat so many calories :-)

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