Re: Red Meat NO GOOD, Veggies no protection.... NOW WHAT?

From: pearl (tea_at_signguestbook.ie)
Date: 01/13/05 

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:31:44 -0000

"usual suspect" <support@our.troops> wrote in message news:nKgFd.6893$WZ1.225@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> cardboardjustice@aol.com wrote:
> > The fruit and vegetable study, also published in the same journal
> > included more than 285,000 European woman. It found that fruit and
> > vegetable consumption did not protect against developing breast
> > cancer.
> >
> >
> > "We can't even eat enough food to get the antioxidants we need .. "
> >
> > The question would / should be .. the study of European women did NOT
> > address whether or not they are STILL eating .. meat ..?
>
> It's irrelevant. Other studies have shown *increased* incidence (albeit
> with a wide confidence interval) of breast cancer among vegetarian women.
>
> We found that a vegetarian diet was associated with a 15%
> reduction in mortality from ischaemic heart disease. This was
> *NOT SIGNIFICANT* and was LESS THAN the roughly 30% reductions
> REPORTED IN EARLIER ANALYSES of this cohort.... A vegetarian
> diet was also associated with a *SIGNIFICANT INCREASE* in
> mortality from breast cancer. However, the confidence interval
> was wide.... The numbers of deaths for individual cancer sites
> were small and the mortality ratios have wide confidence
> intervals. The 41% reduction in mortality from lung cancer
> associated with daily consumption of fresh fruit was *NOT
> SIGNIFICANT*....
> http://tinyurl.com/4q6fe

RELATIVE risk of breast cancer among Japanese woman
                                           Meat Eggs Butter/cheese
less than once per week 1.0 1.0 1.0
2-4 times per week 2.55 1.91 2.10
almost daily 3.83 2.86 3.23
(from a paper by Hirayama cited in John Scharffenberg's
Problems with Meat", 1989)

Am J Clin Nutr 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):532S-538S
Associations between diet and cancer, ischemic heart disease,
and all-cause mortality in non-Hispanic white California
Seventh-day Adventists.
Fraser GE. Center for Health Research and the Department of
Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Loma Linda University, CA USA.

  Results associating diet with chronic disease in a cohort of 34192
California Seventh-day Adventists are summarized. Most Seventh-day
Adventists do not smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, and there is a wide
range of dietary exposures within the population. About 50% of those
studied ate meat products <1 time/wk or not at all, and vegetarians
consumed more tomatoes, legumes, nuts, and fruit, but less coffee,
doughnuts, and eggs than did nonvegetarians. Multivariate analyses
showed significant associations between beef consumption and fatal
ischemic heart disease (IHD) in men [relative risk (RR) = 2.31 for
subjects who ate beef > or =3 times/wk compared with vegetarians],
significant protective associations between nut consumption and fatal
and nonfatal IHD in both sexes (RR approximately 0.5 for subjects
who ate nuts > or =5 times/wk compared with those who ate nuts
<1 time/wk), and reduced risk of IHD in subjects preferring whole-grain
to white bread. The lifetime risk of IHD was reduced by approximately
31% in those who consumed nuts frequently and by 37% in male
vegetarians compared with nonvegetarians. Cancers of the colon and
prostate were significantly more likely in nonvegetarians (RR of 1.88
and 1.54, respectively), and frequent beef consumers also had higher
risk of bladder cancer. Intake of legumes was negatively associated
with risk of colon cancer in nonvegetarians and risk of pancreatic
cancer. Higher consumption of all fruit or dried fruit was associated
with lower risks of lung, prostate, and pancreatic cancers.
Cross-sectional data suggest vegetarian Seventh-day Adventists have
lower risks of diabetes mellitus, hypertension, and arthritis than
nonvegetarians. Thus, among Seventh-day Adventists, vegetarians are
healthier than nonvegetarians but this cannot be ascribed only to the
absence of meat.
PMID: 10479227

'.. disease rates were significantly associated within a range of dietary
plant food composition that suggested an absence of a disease
prevention threshold. That is, the closer a diet is to an all-plant foods
diet, the greater will be the reduction in the rates of these diseases.'
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov98/thermogenesis_paper.html

> > .. high
> > absorption of .. iron .. at ALL times of iron status .. whether we need
> > the iron or not .. it is .. absorbed .. at .. a .. high .. rate .. /
> > heme iron !!
>
> Stop with the idiotic ellipses. Heme iron is the easiest for the body to
> use, you lame twit.

'The Heme Iron Problem

     Heme (blood) iron, cancer, and cardiovascular disease.
     Iron encourages production of free radicals which can damage DNA
and presumably increase cancer risk. In a study of over 14,000 individuals,
high iron intake and high iron body stores were both positively linked to the
risk of colon cancer. Higher levels of iron were associated with higher
incidence of colon polyps, possible forerunners of colon tumors. However,
cancer patients themselves had low levels of stored iron, indicating that
cancer itself can deplete iron stores. [1]

      Controversy has surrounded the question as to whether too much
iron in your diet raises your risk for heart disease. A new study from the
Harvard University School of Public Health brings new insight to the debate.
Lasting for 4 years, this research involved more than 50,000 male health
professionals. It was found that total iron intake was not associated with
heart disease risk. But the source of the iron was the principle factor.
High levels of heme iron raised risk for heart disease twofold. Heme iron
is the type of iron found in meat, chicken and fish.

     Plant foods contain non-heme iron which appears to not be associated
with risk for heart attack. Traditionally, many nutritionists used to consider
non-heme iron to be inferior to the iron found in animal products, because
non-heme iron is somewhat less well absorbed. But new evidence suggests
that non-heme iron seems to be preferable.

      When the body is low in iron, it can increase absorption of non-heme
iron, and it can reduce adsorption when it already has sufficient amounts.
The heme iron in meats tends to pass quickly right through the adsorption
mechanism, thus entering the blood stream whether it is needed or not.
Since vegetarians generally have adequate iron intake, it is clear that
non-heme iron can easily meet nutritional needs. Also, plant iron doesn't
create the health risks of heme iron.

      Iron increases heart disease risks because heme iron acts as a
pro-oxidant, causing LDL-cholesterol -- the 'bad' cholesterol -- to react
with oxygen. This reaction is involved in the formation of plaques in the
arteries and therefore increases one's risk of cardiovascular problems. [2]

[1] Nelson, Davis, Suffer, Sobin, Kikeenddl, Bowen. Body iron stores
and risk of colonic neoplasia. J Natl Canc Inst 1994; 86:455-60

[2] Ascherio, Willett, Rimm, Giovannucci, Stampger. Dietary iron intake
and risk of coronary disease among men. Circulation 1994; 89:969-74
http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm

> > Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
>
> Oh was he?

Yes.

> Why did he say that it's what comes out of a person's mouth
> that makes him unclean instead of what goes in?

'13. And Yeshua said, Well hath Moses commanded you to be
clean, and to keep your bodies clean, and your vessels clean,
but ye have added things which ofttimes cannot be observed by
every one at all times and in all places.
14. Hearken unto me therefore, not only unclean things entering
into the body of man defile the man, but much more do evil
thoughts and unclean, which pour from the heart of man, defile
the inner man and defile others also. Therefore take heed to your
thoughts and cleanse your hearts and let your food be pure. '
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_5.html#gn43

['An Irish clergyman, Rev. G. J. Ouseley claims to have discovered the
Original Gospel from which the present Four Gospels were derived,
which, he says, was "preserved in one of the Buddhist monasteries in
Tibet, where it was hidden by some of the Essene Community for
safety from the hands of the corrupters, and is now for the first time
translated from the Aramaic."

    This statement was made by Rev. Ouseley in a preface to his
publication of this Gospel, in a book entitled "Gospel of the Holy Twelve."
E. F. Udny, in an introduction to this work, writes:

    "At the time of the corruption of the Gospels, the Epistles and Revelation'
were presumably already in existence, and if the Gospels were tampered with,
so no doubt was the rest of the New Testament, which is now equally destitute
of the teachings removed from the Gospels. It may well be that uncorrupted
copies of the Epistles and Revelation were similarly sent by the Essenes to the
safety of a Buddhist monastery, and that, when the world has assimilated to the
New Gospel, those, too, may be give us."

    Rev. Ouseley claims that he received a transcription Of the Original Gospel
from a Buddhist monastery in Tibet where it is preserved. Rev. Ouseley writes:

    "The early Christian Fathers did well their work of destroying the sources
and records from which they gathered the information and data put by them in
the Bible. But they failed to destroy it all. Some escaped, and as it is discovered
here and there by patient research workers, it is astonishing to see how the
world has been deceived by the Christian Fathers.

    "The Original Gospel is preserved in one of the Buddhist monasteries in Tibet,
and is written in Aramaic. These 'correctors' (men authorized to 'correct' the
text of Scripture in the interests of what was considered orthodoxy) cut out of
the Gospels with minute care certain teachings of Our Lord's which they did not
propose to 'follow, namely, those against flesh eating, such as accounts of our
Lord's interference, on several occasions, to save animals from ill treatment, and
even the interesting and important teachings ever prominent in Eastern scriptures."

We have referred elsewhere to the "correctors" who were hired by the Church
Fathers at the Council of Nicea to alter the original text of the Gospels, leaving
out those doctrines that were obnoxious to their emperor, Constantine, whom
they desired to convert to Christianity, which he opposed. Chief among these
objectionable doctrines were the prohibition against the use of flesh meat and
alcohol, and the recommendation of kindness to animals, all of which constituted
the fundamental doctrines of the teachings of Christ. On this point Udny writes:
"The great significance of the corruption of the Text lies rather in the nature of
the matter struct out by the 'correctors' than in the amount. It is evident that the
'correctors' and those who appointed them were at least unwilling to denounce
their beef and beer, a convenient alliteration for flesh and alcohol."
......'
http://members.tripod.com/jbrooks2/The_Rev_G_J_R_Ouseley.htm

"The Nazarean -... They acknowledged Moses and believed that
he had received laws - not this law, however, but some other.
And so, they were jews who kept all the Jewish observances, but
they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it
unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it. They claim that
these Books are fictions, and that none of these customs were
instituted by the fathers. (Epiphanius / Panarion 1:18) '

Philo -

'[Essenes: the name]

(11.1) But our lawgiver trained an innumerable body of his pupils to
partake in those things, who are called Essenes, being, as I imagine,
honoured with this appellation because of their exceeding holiness
[Greek hosioteta = osiothta].

(EGM 75) There is a portion of those people called Essenes, in number
something more than four thousand in my opinion, who derive their name
from their piety [Greek hosiotetos = osiothtoV], though not according to
any accurate form of the Grecian dialect, because they are above all men
devoted to the service [therapeutai] of God, not sacrificing living animals,
but studying rather to preserve their own minds in a state of holiness and
purity.
..
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/courses/999/hypothet.htm

'They sent out healers and teachers from the brotherhoods,
amongst whom were Elijah, John the Baptist, John the Beloved
and the great Essene Master, Jesus.'
http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/israelites/INTRO_ESSENES.htm ]

> Also, why did he help
> (or "enable") fishermen?
>
> When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, "Put out into
> deep water, and let down the nets for a catch."
>
> Simon answered, "Master, we've worked hard all night and haven't
> caught anything. But because you say so, I will let down the
> nets."
>
> When they had done so, they caught such a large number of fish
> that their nets began to break. So they signaled their partners
> in the other boat to come and help them, and they came and
> filled both boats so full that they began to sink.
>
> When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus' knees and said, "Go
> away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!" For he and all his
> companions were astonished at the catch of fish they had
> taken...

'2. And Yeshua began to preach, and to say, Repent; for the kingdom
of heaven is at hand. And as he was walking by the sea of Galilee, he
saw Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net in the
sea; for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I
will make you fishers of men. And they straightway forsook their nets,
and followed him.
3. And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the
son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their
father, mending their nets; and he called them. And they immediately
left their nets, and the ship, and their father, and followed him.'
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_2.html#gn14

> Luke 5:4-9 (cp. John 21 for similar post-resurrection account)

'Yeshua Appeareth at the Sea Of Tiberias

1. AFTER these things Yeshua shewed himself again to the disciples
at the sea of Tiberias, and on this wise shewed he himself. There were
together Simon, Peter, and Thomas, called Didymus, and Nathanael
of Cana in Galilee, and James and John and two other of his disciples.
2. And Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We
also go with thee. They went forth and entered into a ship immediately,
and that night they caught nothing. And when the morning was now
come, Yeshua stood on the shore, but the disciples knew not that it
was Yeshua.
3. Then Yeshua said unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They
answered him, Nay, Lord, not enough for all; there is naught but a
small loaf, a little oil, and a few dried fruits. And he said unto them,
Let these suffice; come and dine.
4. And he blessed them, and they ate and were filled, and there was
a pitcher of water also, and he blessed it likewise, and lo, it was the
fruit of the vine. '
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_9.html#gn89

> He fed fish to hungry followers:
> Jesus called his disciples to him and said, "I have compassion
> for these people; they have already been with me three days and
> have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or
> they may collapse on the way."
>
> His disciples answered, "Where could we get enough bread in this
> remote place to feed such a crowd?"
>
> "How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked.
>
> "Seven," they replied, "and a few small fish."
>
> He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. Then he took the
> seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he
> broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to
> the people. They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the
> disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were
> left over.
> -- Mathew 15:32-37

'4. And the day was far spent, and his disciples came unto
him and said, This is a desert place, and now the time is far
passed. Send them away, that they may go into the country
round about into the villages, and buy themselves bread, for
they have nothing to eat.
5. He answered and said unto them, Give ye them to eat.
And they say unto him, Shall we go and buy two hundred
pennyworth of bread, and give them to eat ?
6. He saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? go and see.
And when they knew, they said, Six loaves and seven clusters
of grapes. And he commanded them to make all sit down by
companies of fifty upon the grass. And they sat down in ranks
by hundreds and by fifties.
7. And when he had taken the six loaves and the seven clusters
of grapes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed and brake the
loaves, and the grapes also and gave them to his disciples to set
before them and they divided them among them all.
8. And they did all eat and were filled. And they took up twelve
baskets full of the fragments that were left. And they that did eat
of the loaves and of the fruit were about five thousand men,
women and children, and he taught them many things.'
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_3.html#gn29

> He also ate fish himself -- making him at least pescetarian (see below
> for his participation in the Pesach):
> When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And
> while they still did not believe it because of joy and
> amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
> They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate
> it in their presence.
> -- Luke 24:40-43

'3. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his Heart.
Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
4. For Thomas, called Didymus, one of the disciples, had said unto them,
Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into
his heart, I will not believe. Then saith he to Thomas, Behold my hands, my
heart, and my feet; reach hither thy hands, and be not faithless but believing.
5. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God! And
Yeshua saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast
believed; blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.
6. Then saith Yeshua unto them again, Peace be unto you, as Abba Amma
hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this he breathed
on them and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost; preach the Gospel,
and anounce ye unto all nations; the resurrection of the Son of Man.
7. Teach ye the holy law of love which I have delivered unto you. And
whosoever forsake their sins, they are remitted unto them, and whosoever
continue in their sins they are retained unto them.
8. Baptise them who believe and repent, bless and anoint them, and offer
ye the pure Oblation of the fruits of the earth, which I have appointed unto
you for a Memorial of me.
9. Lo, I have given my body and my blood to be offered on the Cross, for
the redemption of the world from the sin against love, and from the bloody
sacrifices and feasts of the past.
10. And ye shall offer the Bread of life, and the Wine of salvation, for a pure
Oblation with incense, as it is written of me, and ye shall eat and drink thereof
for a memorial, that I have delivered all who believe in me from the ancient
bondage of your ancestors.
11. For they, making a god of their belly, sacrificed unto their god the innocent
creatures of the earth, in place of the carnal nature within themselves.
12. And eating of their flesh and drinking of their blood to their own destruction,
corrupted their bodies and shortened their days, even as the Gentiles who knew
not the truth, or who knowing it, have changed it into a lie.
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_9.html#gn87

> Fact: his disciples weren't ARAs, they were fishermen. Fact: he went out
> with them. Fact: he told them where and when to find fish. Fact: he fed
> fish to others. Fact: he ate fish himself.

Not fact.

> Consider the Passover seder:
> On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was
> customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked
> him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you
> to eat the Passover?"
>
> So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the
> city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow
> him. Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks:
> Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my
> disciples?' He will show you a large upper room, furnished and
> ready. Make preparations for us there."
>
> The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as
> Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
> -- Mark 14:12-16
>
> Did he forbid the lamb? No, he and his disciples partook in the custom
> of killing and eating a lamb on Pesach.

 'The Last Paschal Supper

4. And Yeshua said, With desire have I desired to eat this Passover
with you before I suffer. and to institute the Memorial of my Oblation
for the service and salvation of all. For behold the hour cometh when
the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of sinners.
5. And one of the twelve said unto him, Lord, is it I ? And he answered,
He to whom I give the sop the same is he.
6. And Iscariot said unto him, Master, behold the unleaven bread, the
mingled wine and the oil and the herbs, but where is the lamb that Moses
commanded? (for Judas had bought the lamb, but Yeshua had forbidden
that it should be killed).
7. And John spake in the Spirit, saying, Behold the Lamb of God, the
good Shepherd which giveth his life for the sheep. And Judas was
troubled at these words, for he knew that he should betray him. But
again Judas said, Master, is it not written in the law that a lamb must
be slain for the passover within the gates?
8. And Yeshua answered, If I am lifted up on the cross then indeed
shall the lamb be slain; but woe unto him by whom it is delivered into
the hands of the slayers; it were better of him had he not been born.
9. Verily I say unto you, for this end have I come into the world, that
I may put away all blood offerings and the eating of the flesh of the
beasts and the birds that are slain by men.
10. In the beginning, God gave to all, the fruits of the trees, and the
seeds, and the herbs, for food; but those who loved themselves more
than God, or their fellows, corrupted their ways, and brought diseases
into their bodies, and filled the earth with lust and violence.
11. Not by shedding innocent blood, therefore, but by living a righteous
life, shall ye find the peace of God. Ye call me the Christ of God and ye
say well, for I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.
12. Walk ye in the Way, and ye shall find God. Seek ye the Truth, and
the Truth shall make you free. Live in the Life, and ye shall see no death.
All things are alive in God, and the Spirit of God filleth all things.
13. Keep ye the commandments. Love thy God with all thy heart, and
love thy neighbour as thyself. On these hang all the law and the prophets.
And the sum of the law is this-Do not ye unto others as ye would not
that others should do unto you. Do ye unto others, as ye would that
others should do unto you.
14. Blessed are they who keep this law, for God is manifested in all
creatures. All creatures live in God, and God is hid in them.
..
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_8.html#gn75

> Even if you refuse to accept the
> fish and lamb, consider the following:
> A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If
> you are willing, you can make me clean."
>
> Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched
> the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the
> leprosy left him and he was cured.
>
> Jesus sent him away at once with a strong warning: "See that you
> don't tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest
> and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your
> cleansing, as a testimony to them."
> Mark 1:40-44
>
> So Christ commanded animal sacrifice on at least one occasion.

' And the chief priests and elders and also the council did seek
false witnesses against Yeshua and Judas Iscariot was among them.
And the council questioned Yeshua in many of his sayings, as to
who he was and claimed to be, and they asked of him: "Why dost
thou forbid that a lamb be slain and thus defile the law of Moses,
for it is said of thee, no flesh entereth into thy mouth; do ye put
thyself above the law and Moses?"

    And another asked of him: "It hast been spoken of thee, that
ye put forth bread before the lamb and juice of the fruit before
the poured blood. Know ye not, thou hast blasphemed God?"

    And still another asked of Yeshua: "Why dost thou abolish the
blood sacrifices of the law, and, yea, the eating of flesh as Moses
commanded that we do lawfully?"

    And Yeshua, looking at them and perceiving their evil hearts
hardened with love of riches and vain glory, and without mercy
or natural affection, said unto them: "I know not that Moses
commandeth such as lawful unto you, nor doth the Holy Law
of God change for the desires of men, for Moses spoke not these
words, ye hath made into law! "
..
http://www.essene.com/TheEsseneHumaneGospel/The_Essene_Humane_Gospel_Of_Christ_Part_4.html

> And why
> did Mary and Joseph offer sacrifices upon the birth of Jesus?

"Joseph and Mary, his parents, went up to Jerusalem every
year at the Feast of the Passover and they observed the feast
after the manner of their brethren, who abstained from
bloodshed and the eating of flesh and from strong drink. .."
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_1.html#gn6

> Jesus was NOT vegetarian, nor did he do anything consistent with the
> animal rights or "vegan" position. People who make such claims pervert
> the truth for their own peculiar agendas. It's not called "scholarship"
> when they do that, it's called propaganda. It's disrespectful,
> disingenuous, and deceitful. People who want to make positive change in
> the world -- for their fellow man or for the beasts -- need to start
> from a point of honesty. You have patently failed to do that.

war is peace