Re: Red Meat NO GOOD, Veggies no protection.... NOW WHAT?

From: Juhana Harju (shantigiri_at_despammed.com)
Date: 01/14/05 

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:42:13 +0200

pearl wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" <shantigiri@despammed.com> wrote in message
> news:34pv2rF4dfuu8U1@individual.net...
>> pearl wrote:
> <..>
>>> *Multivariate analyses
>>> showed significant associations between beef consumption and fatal
>>> ischemic heart disease (IHD) in men [relative risk (RR) = 2.31 for
>>> subjects who ate beef > or =3 times/wk compared with vegetarians]*,
>>> [...]
>>> Thus, among Seventh-day Adventists, vegetarians are
>>> healthier than nonvegetarians but this cannot be ascribed only to
>>> the absence of meat.
>>> [...] '.. disease rates were significantly associated within a
>>> range of dietary plant food composition that suggested an absence
>>> of a
>>> disease prevention threshold. That is, the closer a diet is to an
>>> all-plant foods diet, the greater will be the reduction in the rates
>>> of these diseases.'
>>> http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov98/thermogenesis_paper.html
>>>
>>> On the basis of these results, it was predicted
>>> that the incidence of ischemic heart disease might be 24% lower in
>>> lifelong vegetarians and 57% lower in lifelong vegans than in meat
>>> eaters.
>>> ....
>>> The most striking results from the analysis were the strong positive
>>> associations between increasing consumption of animal fats and
>>> ischemic heart disease mortality [...]
>>> http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/525S
>>
>> Pearl, you are absolutely right about the health benefits of
>> vegetarian diets.
>
> Thank you.
>
>> However, there are some unanswered questions also. Vegetarian
>> diet is not good at reducing the indicidence of breast cancer
>> (actually no known diet is).
>
> You missed this?..
>
> 'Meat, saturated fats and protein & Breast Cancer
>
> Some of the largest studies on breast cancer in medical history have
> been c
> onducted by Dr Takeshi Hirayama, at the National Cancer Research
> Institute
> in Tokyo. Monitoring over 122,000 women over decades, Dr Hirayama
> discovered that women who eat meat daily have four times the risk of
> developing breast cancer than those women who eat little or no meat
> (5).

You can always find some sporadic studies to support vegetarian diets in
preventing breast cancer. But there is actually very little that you can
do by diet to prevent breast cancer as you can see from this review
article.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=468678

>> There are also some other defects in unsupplemented
>> vegetarian diets.
>
> Not only vegetarian..
>
> 'Mineral content: This may be the most important nutritional
> difference
> between organic and regular produce

I am aware of this difference.

>> Vegetarian diets are not good at preventing stroke --
>
> ' Too much salt (sodium) and saturated fats (found in animal fats such
> as red meat, cheese and butter) increases the risk of stroke, while a
> diet rich in fruit and vegetables (which contain anti-oxidants to help
> protect the blood vessels against atherosclerosis) unsaturated fats
> (found in nuts, seeds and oily fish) and fibre can help lower the
> risk.
> In fact it's been estimated that consuming one to two servings more of
> fruit and vegetables a day can reduce the risk of stroke by 40 per
> cent.'
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/stroke/prevention_index1.shtml
>
>> perhaps due to the high homocysteine levels of unsupplemented vitamin
>> B12.
>
> Enteric bacteria resident in the ileum produce B12 when cobalt is
> ingested (see above), but a supplement ensures adequate amounts.
> Kelp will provide trace minerals, and eating organic is preferable.
>
> Eating meat does not prevent vitamin B12 deficiency..

No, but globally vegetarians have higher serum homocysteine levels
because lack of vitamin B12, which is not healthy of cource. (This does
not apply to vegetarians in US because of the wide supplementation.)

>> Nor do vegetarian diets provide enough vitamin D for most of
>> people.

> 3. It is nearly impossible to get adequate amounts of vitamin D from
> your diet.
> Sunlight exposure is the only reliable way to generate vitamin D in
> your own
> body.

I know this. However, not eating any fish, which is practically the only
dietary source to provide substantial amounts ov vitamin D adds to this
deficiency *if* you don't supplement.

> *Vegans, who eat more seeds and nuts, have
> twice the
> Omega 3 fat level of the average American.* '
> http://www.uea.ac.uk/~x514/HEAL/THEFATSOFLIFE.pdf
> * mine

The omega-3 fatty acid status of vegetarians is far from being ideal.
Please, look at the following study (full text available):

Brenda C Davis and Penny M Kris-Etherton, Achieving optimal essential
fatty acid status in vegetarians: current knowledge and practical
implications. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 78, No. 3,
640S-646S, September 2003

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/640S?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=+Kris-Etherton+&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1105715807657_5250&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1&journalcode=ajcn
>
>> and lack of B12.
>
> See above.
>
>> So, I would say that good vegetarian diets are close being optimal
>> but they are not perfect. Adding some fish oils or fatty fish and
>
> OR seeds and nuts.

Trying to provide omega-3 fatty acids from vegetarian sources only
increases the risk of prostate cancer. Also the elongation of enough EPA
and DHA is efficient only in young and healthy people. So
alpha-linolenic acid is not ideal source to provide enough EPA and DHA.

>> supplementing with vitamins B12 and (in northern latitudes) vitamin
>> D is needed.
>
> 'Analyses of data from the China studies by his collaborators
> and others, Campbell told the epidemiology symposium, is leading
> to policy recommendations. He mentioned three:
>
> * The greater the variety of plant-based foods in the diet, the
> greater
> the benefit. Variety insures broader coverage of known and unknown
> nutrient needs.
>
> * Provided there is plant food variety, quality and quantity, a
> healthful and nutritionally complete diet can be attained without
> animal-based food.
>
> * The closer the food is to its native state - with minimal heating,
> salting
> and processing - the greater will be the benefit.
>
> http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et1101/et1101s18.html

I am also interested in that study. I ordered the new book.

http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1932100385/qid=1105713771/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/102-0087450-4752979?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

>
> + sunlight.

I agree with the importance of sunlight, but I live 60 degrees North and
II don't get much. So I have to think about supplements and the optimal
level, which I think would be around 20-25 µg/ day (800-1000 IU).

I mostly agree with you, but I think we would do better by adding some
fish oils and/or fatty fish like the Cretans and Okinawan centenarians.
Plus taking some supplements. 

-- 
Juhana
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