Re: Very low fat versus very low carb diets

I love it when you talk complete horse***, showing an
example of yourhypocrasy inside the same
paragraph...LOL

So typical of you, George

"I just gag at folks who make unfounded,
unsubstantiated claims without scientific merit based
upon their own biases and little else. I don't give a
rat's ass what you eat or what you think of my diet.

I care a lot about accuracy."


"Susan" <nevermind@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:40hq76F1a27k0U1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> runnswim@xxxxxxx (Larry Weisenthal) wrote:
> > Susan, I do apologize for the "Hell hath no fury"
remark. I meant it
> > only in jest, but I understand why you were
offended. I've had less
> > than 3 hours sleep in the past 38, and I'm getting
a little punchy.
> > I'll try to stay more on task from here on in.
>
> You'll have to.
>
> >
> > O.k.
> >
> > First, a few general remarks.
> >
> > As illustrated on this thread, few things provoke
as much passion as
> > diet. Put Osama bin Laden and George Bush next to
each other at a
> > lunch counter, and have both of them spontaneously
order lamb and
> > baklava, and you'll have instant bonding, which
transcends much of what
> > divides them. But put a low carb guy next to a low
fat guy at the same
> > lunch counter, and they'll be mentally gagging over
the sight of each
> > other's food. So we need to recognize this from
the start. Virtually
> > nothing is a personally sacred to us as our food.
Attack my food;
> > attack me. It's just what it is.
>
> Maybe that's true of you, but not true of me. I just
gag at folks who
> make unfounded, unsubstantiated claims without
scientific merit based
> upon their own biases and little else. I don't give
a rat's ass what
> you eat or what you think of my diet.
>
> I care a lot about accuracy.
>
> >
> > Second, nearly everyone (and this includes
nutrition researchers) is
> > strongly biased by their affection for their own
food.
>
> Affection is a very odd word to use when discussing
the most healthful
> way for a diabetic to eat.
>
> >
> > Thirdly (and this was told to me by a prominent,
well-published
> > nutrition Ph.D.), the world of nutrition research
is populated by
> > people who generally couldn't make it in more
competitive and rigorous
> > scientific disciplines. The people who tend to do
nutrition studies
> > are, therefore, (1) strongly biased on a personal
level to begin with
> > in ways that just don't apply to most scientific
disciplines (who has a
> > lot of personal emotion wrapped up in p53 gene
expression?) and are (2)
> > at the bottom of the biomedical research food
chain.
>
> Oh, who cares what some supercilious special friend
of yours thinks of
> others he likes to look down on?
>
> >
> > Fourthly, there are few types of clinical trials
harder to complete
> > than definitive diet and lifestyle interventional
studies. For a whole
> > lot of obvious reasons, beginning with the fact
that you are (1) trying
> > to change something as personal as someone's diet
and (2) you are
> > trying to get inherently lazy 21st century people
to commit to a
> > lifelong program of regular exercise. Also, it
takes decades to
> > determine effects on longevity, which is the main
gold standard which
> > really matters.
>
> Longevity isn't in play here. Health and quality of
life is.
>
> You seem to be unaware of the larger body of
biomedical science that
> doesn't rely on diet studies.
>
> >
> > I'm not a believer in the lowest common denominator
approach to
> > anything -- in this case, the effort to define the
sort of diet which
> > works best for the average person, in a world where
few people are
> > truly average. Susan has provided her experience;
I've provided mine.
> > Both of us are telling the truth. I believe Susan
when she says that
> > she suffered ill effects from the Ornish diet. The
experience may well
> > have motivated her to show the passion expressed in
her various
> > messages on this thread. Hopefully, Susan believes
what I said about
> > my own experience with my own diet of more than 3
decades. Susan isn't
> > "average," and neither am I! Who would even want
to be "average?"
>
> I'm not convinced that "average" wouldn't be
flattering you. I'm not
> yet impressed that you're anything but someone in
love with the sound
> and sight of his own words.
>
> >
> > Now, let's narrow things down a bit.
> >
> > Here's what Susan and I have been arguing about.
It all started when I
> > was glowing about my fondness for bagels, Italian
bread, al dente white
> > flour pasta, and baked potatoes (all consumed in a
background of a
> > 10-15% calories as fat diet and regular, vigorous
exercise). Susan
> > said that high carbohydrate diets were unhealthful
for Type II
> > diabetics. I said that the Pritikin experience
proved that a high
> > carbohydrate diet (of the type defined by Pritikin
in the setting of a
> > regular exercise program) was beneficial for type
II diabetics (I did
> > not qualify this by saying "most diabetics," but it
was just a brief
> > exchange). At this point Susan developed a case of
unwarranted
> > certitude, and her anger was compounded by a spat
over who was more
> > eqregiously generalizing a personal anecdote. And
then I tossed out my
> > gratuitous "Hell hath no fury" line, and we really
are not getting
> > along.
> >
> > Here's the point of contention: I assert that a
Pritikin-type diet and
> > exercise program improves the health of many (but
obviously not all)
> > Type II diabetics. Susan asserts that the medical
and scientific
> > literature (of which she has an impressive command)
proves otherwise.
> >
> > Susan is giving me a chance to state my case. Then
she'll offer
> > counter arguments.
> >
> > My case will be stated in 3 parts:
>
> This better be brief; I'm bored to tears already.
You apparently
> flatter yourself that the rest of the international
internet community
> gives a *** about you and I and this discussion.
Get over yourself.
>
> >
> > 1. Data supporting my assertions of the beneficial
effect of the
> > Pritikin diet/exercise program for Type II
diabetics.
>
> Compared to Burger King, maybe.
>
> >
> > 2. General critique of studies purporting to show
deleterious effects
> > of high carbohydrate diets.
>
> This should be fun, if I don't fall asleep.
>
> >
> > 3. A simple explanation of why it's not at all
remarkable that a high
> > carbohydrate diet and exercise program could be
helpful to (many) type
> > II diabetics (and even more helpful to - many, but
not all - non-type
> > II diabetics).
>
> It's like selling gluten to celiacs.
>
> >
> > Alas, however, I've been up for 35 of the last 38
hours and I need to
> > take a nap before driving up to LAX to pick up my
younger daughter
> > (returning from college for Christmas break).
> >
> > I'll dive into (1), (2), and (3) either later
tonight or tomorrow (I
> > suspect the latter).
>
> You can't imagine how unlikely I am to read a single
additional post by
> you. You've now posted about 5 times, now at GREAT
LENGTH to explain
> why you are too busy and have no time to substantiate
your remarks.
>
> Susan


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