Re: 5 approaches -- the Carlos view

From: James (jamesd_at_frontiernet.net)
Date: 09/16/04

  • Next message: NorthernSpy1: "Re: 5 approaches -- the Carlos view" 
    Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:46:38 -0400

    I take issue with your statement that prostatic injection (of a cocktail of
    antibiotics, sterpoids, antifungals, lidocaine, etc.) is a "quack" approach.

    Look at the following links:

    http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/injection.html

    http://www.fertilitysolution.com/tforcp.htm

    http://www.prostatitis2000.org/eng/terapia.htm#COCKTAIL%20%20ANTIBIOTICO

    http://www.pioa.org/prostatits.html

    You may not want to try this approach - it is quite extreme - and controversial -
    but that is different then quackery.

    It has worked well for me as a treatment protocol (NOT a cure).

    Review my posts at cp.com under injections and success stories for all of the pros
    and cons of this approach.

    Many users there disagree wheather or not it is a good idea - but I think it is
    fair to say it is a treatment and not quackery!

    NorthernSpy1 wrote:

    > For those who "can't sit" there seem to be a bunch of approaches. This is my
    > attempt to summarize them.
    >
    > I'm sure there are mistakes, incomplete statements, misleading parts, and
    > subliminal cupcake recipes in here -- I'm just a dude what hurts, and claim no
    > medical knowledge. But perhaps this will help someone organize their
    > investigation, as it guides mine.
    >
    > In brief... there are several approaches, and each has a mainstream side, and
    > an extremist side, and a lot of debate about which is which. Another thing...
    > is some of this relates to prostatitis, and some of it undoubtedly does not
    > (the assumption being that pain upon sitting may have several causes).
    >
    > I have little ego wrapped up in this -- anyone who wants to point out the
    > especially stupid parts is encouraged to do so.
    >
    > - Carlos
    >
    > ==== 09.15.04 summary == sitting and prostate pain === Carlos speaks! ==
    > [1] INFECTION APPROACH
    >
    > The infection approach says bacteria or other infectious agents explain
    > everything, even if you can't prove the existence of any particular bug. Many
    > people seem to better or cured by antibiotics. The downside is you can't take
    > antibiotics forever, and some have nasty side effects.
    >
    > Not all antibiotics are the same. There are things Zithromax and Doxycycline
    > kill that Cipro and Levaquin will not. Just because you failed with a month of
    > Cipro or Bactrim doesn't mean something else might not work.
    >
    > There is also a debate about WHY antibiotics work. One view is they only work
    > because they are anti-inflammatory, not because they're killing bugs. Another
    > is they are anti-inflammatory BECAUSE they are killing bugs.
    >
    > On the quack side, some people take antibiotics for years (in small amounts),
    > or get them intravenously, or get them injected directly into the prostate.
    >
    > Prostate drainage is an old technique of squishing the prostate (by a gloved
    > hand inside the rectum) which may be useful especially if you are on
    > antibiotics (the theory is you remove fluid that may contain bacteria). (some
    > people think drainage helps because it's a kind of massage, relaxing trigger
    > points). But it's difficult to find someone who knows how to do it, and some
    > speculate it has dangers (pressure causing injury, or spreading infection,
    > among them).
    >
    > One big debate is whether and how to culture to evaluate the possibility of
    > infection. A minority have testable bacterial prostatitis, take antibiotics,
    > and are cured. More intensive testing (5 day tests, tests of semen as well as
    > urine) reveal more bacteria, but not necessarily the bacteria that is causing
    > the pain.
    >
    > [2] TRIGGER POINT
    >
    > This approach says that pain makes muscles tighten, and after
    > weeks/months/years of being tight in the wrong way (as a pain defense) they
    > stay that way even after the pain is gone.
    >
    > Treatment can include:
    >
    > - trigger point massage (http://www.ic-network.com/md/ptlistings.html)
    >
    > - drugs that relax the pelvic floor (that baclofen and klonopin and dilatan)
    > (Dr. Guercini of Rome)
    >
    > - Various injections (numbing agents, or on the more radical fringe, botox)
    > into muscles.
    >
    > In my ignorant view, this mixes cause and effect. Sure, if you have a point of
    > pain, muscles tighten to protect, and in time the infection might be gone but
    > the muscles remain in appropriately strong or inappropriately conditions. But
    > my guess is as long as pain remains, the source of the pain remains. And if
    > there is any science here, why do different massage therapists come to such
    > different conclusions with respect to particular patients.
    >
    > Trigger point may mostly be pain management, not a cure -- but hey, pain
    > management that works is good.
    >
    > [3] NEUROLOGICAL
    >
    > Mainstream medicine recognizes that sitting on a narrow bicycle seat, or an
    > injury (fall from a ladder) can cause neurological damage. Treatment is:
    >
    > - waiting for nerves and blood vessels to regrow while avoiding the activity
    > (bicycling, sitting) that cause the injury
    >
    > - oral steroids, anti inflammatory (palliative more than treatment)
    >
    > Put another way, if excessive bicycling on a narrow seat caused problems
    > (numbness, or urinary or erectile) then don't bicycle. Maybe even sit less.
    > Walk. You'll get better, though it may take months.
    >
    > The freak side of the neurological approach claims the pain is the result of an
    > "entrapped" nerve -- not just injured, but stuck between ligaments that are
    > grinding it making it worse. It's not proven that the pudendal nerve is EVER
    > entrapped and what a lot of the PNE crowd considers their "gross abnormality"
    > is something they somehow lived with without pain for years. Can you say
    > QUACK?!
    >
    > The tests that "prove" entrapment are crackers. Pudendal nerve blocks cure no
    > one, and a serious percentage (over 25% on my extremely informal and
    > unscientific test) get permanently worse. And IMO they have no diagnostic
    > value re: "entrapment". And the "cure" for entrapment -- surgery -- has NO
    > statistics despite years of operations.
    >
    > [4] ANATOMICAL
    >
    > There are many structural reasons that can explain your symptoms (whatever they
    > are). They can include:
    >
    > - a spinal injury or cyst
    >
    > - testicular or prostate cyst or tumor
    >
    > - a urinary stricture which causes "urinary reflux" (chemical inflammation)
    >
    > Now try and find a doctor who will methodically test you for all the
    > possibilities!
    >
    > [5] EVERYTHING ELSE
    >
    > I've seen chiropractors who claim to have made progress treating this stuff.
    >
    > Oh, and herbal -- that's a big one. Many men (at least with enlarged prostates
    > that appear not to have cancer or bacterial infection) are helped by Quercetin,
    > or Saw Palmetto, etc., etc.
    >
    > For pain that is sitting-specific (in other words, no accompanying urinary,
    > prostate or epididymal symptoms) there may be other nonbacterial infections
    > (Google "Bursitis")
    >
    > MANY medical theories
    >
    > - an autoimmune disease (the inflammation is a body reaction, not an external
    > agent)
    > - an allergy (same as autoimmune reaction?)
    >
    > When substantive treatment fails, try pain management.
    >
    > Oh, and something about hormones. This guy is a great resource for all of
    > this:
    >
    > GENERALLY http://www.geocities.com/bill3320/
    >
    > HORMONE THEORY http://www.geocities.com/bill3320/hormones.html

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