Re: Grammar Question

I can understand grammatical mistakes in conversation, and in dictation. We
often do not have time to analyze everything that comes our of our mouth.
I'll even forgive casually written comment. I don't reread my letters
and/or posts (well sometimes I admit I do).

But......in my opinion there is no excuse for scripted speech, and/or
printed word being incorrect Formal speech and/or written word that is
incorrect can really turn me off to a message, and the messenger!

I know, but I am on that high (or not quite so high) horse!

Barb C.
"Bambi C." <blcc324@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:BpgKg.912$Db4.118747@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
That's interesting! I never paid much attention to the use of "proved"
and "proven" before, but I sure will now. Sometimes it amazes me the
stuff heard on the radio and TV. There's one car dealership here that had
a glaring mistake in their radio advertisement (can't remember at the
moment what it was). It made me cringe every time I heard it!

--
Bambi C.
~~~~~~~~~~
He was alone with the horse on a grassy hillside under a blue sky. And
there were birds singing.
(The Chronicles of Narnia)
"Barbara Carlson" <bbcarlson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:_-SdncRhi8tgdmXZnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Okay, Bambi, I wasn't going to sleep until I looked it up, so here it
is--agrees with that I was taught.

According to Websters New World Dictionary--the latest I have which is a
few years old, but not the one from business school! It gives proven as
the Past Participle of Prove and as an adjective. It is NOT listed as
past tense. It was proved, not proven, but it was a proven point..

The Professional Secretary's Handbook does not have anything specific on
it, nor does Webster's New World Secretarial Handbook.

Bill Bryson's Dictionary of Troublesome Words (quite new) says, "In
general, proved is the preferred past tense form and proven the preferred
form for adjectival uses."

Usage and Abusage--another new one--has nothing on the specific subject.

The most interesting, and more liberal view is in Word Court by Barbara
Wallraff--a group of the columns published in the Atlantic Monthly. A
person wrote, "Last night on the news on TV I heard again a word usage I
particularly hate: 'Seeger Ford has proven that it offers the best
deals.' Whatever happened to good old proved as the past tense of the
verb prove? I have always considered proven to be an adjective. Am I
being too fussy, or even wrong?"

Well, while "has proven" is not a simple past tense in the above, proved
would generally be preferred in that case.

However, for the progressive (and I usually look at Barbara Walraff as a
common sense grammarian), here is what Ms. Warf replied, "I happen to
observe the distinction you make ("I proved it was the shortest route"
but "I followed a proven route"). The authorities are far from being
united about it, though, so when others fail to observe the distinction,
let's not get on our high horses. That's the wrong mode of
transportation."

Well I admit high (or not so high, I prefer Arabians) horses are my
favorite mode of transportation.

So, there you have it, and I can go to bed and sleep soundly for having
done it now--and maybe sleep late. I have very little work!

Let's not get into a discussion of the word "whom" that seems to have
disappeared from the English language. Ok, so I'm anal retentive!

Thanks, Bambi. I have been going to do this research for a long time and
needed the prod. At least the consensus is I am right on this one, but
probably somebody will find something I didn't.

Barb C.
"Bambi C." <blcc324@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:pa5Kg.900$Db4.117989@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I'd like to hear more about correct use of "proved" and "proven", if you
feel like explaining.

--
Bambi C.
~~~~~~~~~~

"Barbara Carlson" <bbcarlson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:V7idnVkI3rusTmXZnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I understand what you are saying and it does make some sense. The
examples you gave are not a way in which it is often used, or in a way I
have often used it. I will keep my eyes peeled. It could apply to the
example that started the question, although in that particular case I
would use its (which, of course, is not a verb), or frankly changing the
sentence as suggested made things clearer.

Yes, language can change, but all change is not good. We need new
words for new things. Anything that makes language clearer I am all
for, but when people come out with words like "functionality" and the
ilk it depresses me, and certainly doesn't make things clearer. And I
am wondering whatever happened to the word "proved". Proven is used
incorrectly in many cases. Or when a dictionary allows nucular as an
accepted pronunciation of a word spelled nuclear because our President
cannot pronounce it correctly it disturbs me. That's dumbing down and
in the case of invented words like "functionality" it says to me
somebody is trying to sound high fallutin', and instead they just sound
ignorant to me.

Barb C.
"JCav" <JCav.2dh3d1@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:JCav.2dh3d1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Susan Mitchell Wrote:
I agree. I think we are playing along with the dumbing down
syndrome!

--
Sue -- Firefighter mom -- Still Rabid UW Dawg Fan!
(to reply send to medlawtrans@xxxxxxxxxxx)
"Barbara Carlson" <bbcarlson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:YeGdnYqE0ooU6GXZnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I know what some of the "contemporary" grammars say, but not all
current
grammars agree with them, and editors of newer books and articles
are
not
buying it. I've really been watching this because some of the
"contemporary" changes disturb me, however I do not see many of
them
being
used by knowledgeable people. It's one of those controversial
things
and
I
readily admit to being conservative about such changes. I do keep
up
on
grammar, and those who follow me know I am conservative as far as
adopting
some of the changes. Just because uninformed people use them
commonly
does
not make them right.

Barb C.
"JCav" <JCav.2dgs9w@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:JCav.2dgs9w@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Barbara Carlson Wrote:
Family is singular and "its" is correct. It doesn't sound
strange
to
me.
However, your change of the sentence making "members" the
subject
would
solve the problem nicely, too. Either would then be correct.
"Family"
is
one of those "collective noun" things that some modern grammars
say can
take
pleural verbs. However, I have been watching this because when
the
subject
came up here before I was shocked to see this was allowed. NO
recent
manuscripts (i.e. books, articles, etc.) are using this
"collective
noun"
thing and I am using good old-fashioned grammar rules--and also
some
modern
grammar rules as well. However "its" is not a verb, so doesn't
apply,
and
family is definitely a singular noun.

Barb C.
"Bambi C." <blcc324@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:jhWJg.877$Db4.117118@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The doctor dictates "If the family changes their mind, I would
be
happy to
perform it." This sounds odd to me.

Family is singular, but has more than one mind (unless Borg),
so
"if
the
family changes ITS mind ..." doesn't sound right either.

But neither does "if the family changes their minds" sound
right.

How about "if the family members change their minds ..."?

Or something else???

TGIF!!!

--
Bambi C.
~~~~~~~~~~
He was alone with the horse on a grassy hillside under a blue
sky.
And
there were birds singing.
(The Chronicles of Narnia)

Family and other collective nouns must use the context to
determine
if
it needs a plural or singular verb.

The American Heritage® Book of English Usage.
A Practical and Authoritative Guide to Contemporary English.
1996.


1. Grammar: Traditional Rules, Word Order, Agreement, and Case


§ 20. collective noun
Some nouns, like committee, clergy, enemy, group, family, and
team,
refer to a group but are singular in form. These nouns are called
collective nouns. In American usage, a collective noun takes a
singular
verb when it refers to the collection considered as a whole, as
in
The
family was united on this question or The enemy is suing for
peace.
It
takes a plural verb when it refers to the members of the group
considered as individuals, as in My family are always fighting
among
themselves or The enemy were showing up in groups of three or
four
to
turn in their weapons. In British usage, collective nouns are
more
often treated as plurals: The government have not announced a new
policy. The team are playing in the test matches next week. 1
Be careful not to treat a collective noun as both singular and
plural
in the same construction. Thus you should say The family is
determined
to press its (not their) claim. 2
Collective nouns always refer to living creatures. Similar
inanimate
nouns, such as furniture and luggage, differ in that they cannot
be
counted individually. That is why you cannot buy a furniture or a
luggage. These nouns are usually called mass nouns or noncount
nouns.
They always take a singular verb: The bedroom furniture was on
sale.


--
JCav


You two might as well be calling me an ignoramus. As much as you'd
like to think otherwise, language is not static. If it were, we would
still be using thee and thou for you and thine for your. I don't know
about the rest of America being dumbed down, of which I partly agree,
but this girl is no nitwit. I did manage to remain on the honor roll
my entire high school career, graduate first in my class, get an SAT
score of 1420 in 1990, and receive a full academic scholarship. You
can be a conservative "grammarian" all you like, but the more things
change, the more they stay the same.


--
JCav










.

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