Re: American health care best? No...Most expensive? Yes...Ranked 12th

From: Steve Harris sbharris_at_ROMAN9.netcom.com (sbharris_at_ix.netcom.com)
Date: 07/04/04 

Date: 3 Jul 2004 17:16:54 -0700

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message news:<40E698A8.3554@heartmdphd.com>...
 
> > Say, maybe we could so something about the violent crime rate by
> > getting folks with white coats and stethoscopes to let our youth know
> > that getting shot really hurts, and also is harmful for animals and
> > other livings things. What do you think?
>
> Christ's second commandment would be more effective.

What, you think these gang bangers haven't heard it?

  
> > > > Hey, the fast food and movie industries are big businesses, not
> > > > necessarily good for the general population. Capitalism gives people
> > > > what they want, not what's good for them in terms of some parental
> > > > model.
> > >
> > > Capitalism also convinces people that it has what people want.
> >
> > COMMENT
> >
> > I think you have capitalism confused with advertising. Advertising is
> > just our word for the wares-display often seen in capitalistic
> > systems, sure, but advertising is also a part of communism (where it's
> > merely called something different like "public information": or
> > "propaganda"),
>
> Sorry, Dr. Harris, propaganda in a communist environment does not create
> markets when there is no free market.

COMMENT:

There is more and more confusion here. This started with you saying
that "capitalism" convinces people that it has what people want. But
so do all political systems. Or at least, they all try to. None of
them are perfectly effective. I see no point in you even making the
comment, when it applies not only to capitalism but also to socialism
and Communism.

You bring up "free markets" out of the air. Who said anything about
"free markets." ?? You bring up the term as though it was synonymous
with capitalism. It's not. Free market implies a market in which
trades are supervised by some kind of governing trade authority, which
prevents open theft and also adjudicates and guarantees fairness and
nonviolent conflict resolution in the case of trade disagreements.
Black markets, however, may be perfectly capitalistic (for example,
the cocaine market). And black markets also, of course, often
advertise (that hooker on the street corner with the miniskirt and
heels).

I never claimed propaganda created free markets, or that hooker's
miniskirts created free markets. I simply said they were forms of
advertising. I define advertising as display of goods or services
that are available. It's perfectly possible to have advertising with
no market at all, if you're giving something away instead of selling
it. If the government advertises free cheese, or some rock group
advertises a free concert, you'll have long lines, but no free market,
nor indeed any kind of market.

> > Capitalism has nothing essential to do with advertising per se as part
> > of its definition-- that's a leftist piece of nonsense. Capitalism is
> > the system where the means of production are owned privately, end of
> > story.
>
> Free marketeering is part of capitalism, Dr. Harris.

COMMENT:

There is no such word as "marketeering." There are marketeers, but
what they are doing is properly called simply "marketing."
"Marketeering", particularly when used with black markets, is some
kind of monstrous construction after the manner of racketeering, and I
think is being used by Leftists, hoping it will catch on as vaguely
helping to express the idea that something illegitimate or nasty is
being done by these marketeers, even if the market in question is not
illegal. Along the lines of the idea that what I'm doing in my
business is profiting, but what you're doing is "profiteering." .Which
means you're getting money faster than I am, and I'm jealous of the
unfairness of this. <g>.

Marketing in free markets may (or may not) be a part of capitalism,
but it's not an essential or definitional part (again see the drug
trade). Even if capititalism wasn't ever seen without free markets,
that wouldn't mean a thing. All mammals breathe air, but breathing air
is not part of the definition of what makes an organism a mammal.
Again, capitalism means the means of production are privately owned.
What the owners choose to do with those products is up to them, but if
they choose to tell the public about them in newspapers, that hardly
means that any other system of production wouldn't be forced to do
exactly the same. So there's no point in trying to specifically pin
this practice on capitalism. See the point?

> Though it does not define it, you have to admit that it is a feature of
> American-style capitalism.

It's a feature of every kind of political system. They show goods and
services in newspapers and on TV. I guarantee you they do it in Cuba
and Sweden, and they did it in the old USSR. My point is: so what?

SBH

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