Re: American health care best? No...Most expensive? Yes...Ranked 12th

From: Steve Harris sbharris_at_ROMAN9.netcom.com (sbharris_at_ix.netcom.com)
Date: 07/11/04 

Date: 10 Jul 2004 21:35:42 -0700

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message news:<40EF62BC.227E@heartmdphd.com>...

> > > It sounds like you had a disappointing childhood, Dr. Harris.
> >
> > COMMENT:
> >
> > Not after I quit expecting magical beings to answer my prayers.
>
> It seems you remain bitter.

COMMENT:
Not at all. Irritated by folks like you, Chung, yes.

Harris
> > How do you know that's Jesus and not Brahma or Allah or Venus,
> > or whoever?
>
> Christ responds by name.

COMMENT
Really? How? My dogs come and wag their tails. What does Christ do?

Harris
> > We're talking about the guy with a body of flesh and
> > bones and holes his extremities, remember?
>
Chung
> When He was here on earth, yes.

COMMENT:
I thought you said he still was? Or are you writing from some other
planet?

> > > > How do YOU know Jesus is walking "right beside me?"
> > >
> > > I feel Him beside me.
> >
> > How do you know you're not self-deluded? It's a very simple question.
> > It's the first one every scientist should ask about an observation.
>
> How does anyone know that they are not self-deluded?

COMMENT:
Good question. It's called "the scientific method." Perhaps you've
heard of it, Dr. Chung? Do I really need to put in a description?

Chung:
> When you look at a house, you see the people who have built it. The
> builders are not the house.

Harris COMMENT:
In truth, when I look at a house, I can't see the people who built it.
And neither can you. The could have been alcoholic Swedes or midget
negroes, and the house would look just the same. If they were any good
as craftsmen, of course. But even if they weren't all you could tell
is that they were crappy craftsmen.

> > Stormin Mormon's missionaries ask all potential converts to ask Jesus
> > about becoming a Mormon. So what's YOUR problem?
>
> I avoid problems by walking with Christ.
>
> > Or maybe you're a
> > Mormon and haven't told us?
>
> Christ would have me write the following:
>
> "There are no churches in Heaven. Simply follow my commandments for I am
> the way, the truth, and the light."

COMMENT:
Christ would have you write that, eh? Well, Christ wouldn't have a
Mormon write that, so there's a little problem with verification.
Seems Christ has been giving different messages to different people.
Or else they've been listening to different gods.

> > > > Chung:
> > > > >>It seems that you are blind, Dr. Harris.
> > > > >>May God open your eyes so that you can see Him all around you, in
> > > > >>Christ's name.
> > > >
> > > > COMMENT:
> > > > Oh, ho, you accusing me of being blind?
> > >
> > > Not an accusation but an observation.
> >
> > An observation?
>
> Yes.
>
> > You haven't given me any observations. You've talked
> > about your feelings.
>
> Would suggest you reread this thread.

COMMENT:
Okay: Here's what I see:

Harris:
> > > > How do YOU know Jesus is walking "right beside me?"
> > >
Chung:> > > I feel Him beside me.

COMMENT:
Your other observation was that you can look at a house and see who
built it. I think you're full of it. And I'll formally bet you $100
you can't look at my house and tell me ANYTHING significant about the
people who built it, except that they were human beings of a certain
time. For a lot of houses you won't do that well-- a faux Victorian
wasn't built by Victorians.

>
> > > > That old trick of the
> > > > religious shaman. Them's fighting words and they demands some
> > > > evidence. I accuse you in turn of seeing things that aren't there.
> > >
> > > Blind people do that.
> >
> > No, they don't.
>
> They may not say it but often they still doubt what they are told
> because they can not see especially if they can not touch what is being
> described.

COMMENT:

That's their problem. Blind people who are doubters have all kinds of
avenues open to them to make sure they're not being fooled. A major
one is getting people who have no communicative contact to describe
what they see. A blind man who found that people who claimed to "see"
the same thing had no agreement at all, could rightly concluded that
they were getting no information at all. But that doesn't happen to
blind people, because we all avoid obstacles while they (the blind)
smack into them. That's very educational.

 
> > That's your problem. In the real world there's no
> > difficulty demonstrating to a blind person that they have a perceptual
> > problem. But you're going to have a really hard time doing that trick
> > on me, not to mention Stormin Mormon, whose Jesus is telling him that
> > the LDS church is the only one that will get him into Heaven, and that
> > the LDS missionaries are sent directly from God, like the the Blues
> > Brothers.
>
> It is your informed choice. God gave you (us) the gift of free will.

COMMENT:
This has nothing to do with free will. We are talking about
perception.

> > > > I'm blind, you say?
> > >
> > > So it would seem.

So it would seem? So it would seem to who?

> > >
> > > > Well, then, how about you be my "eyes" and "ears"?
> > > > Ask your personal Jesus about the Mormons, and put the answer right
> > > > here.
> > >
> > > I would be glad to.
> > >
> > > What is your question?
> >
> > Hello?
>
> Hi.
>
> > What does Jesus say about the Mormons?
>
> See above.
>
> > Does Jesus want you to
> > become a Mormon?
>
> No.

COMMENT:
Really? Stormin Mormon, and indeed any other Mormon, would say Jesus
wasn't everyone to become a Mormon. So we have a difference in
perception. Jesus tells you something, and tells Stormin Mormon
something else. Who is right? You say *I* am blind? Clearly, either
you or Stormin Mormon is blind. Which of you is it, this time?

 
> > Does he want me to become a Mormon?
>
> No.

COMMENT:
Jesus doesn't want me to become a Mormon? How do you know? Did Jesus
tell you?

> > Is Jesus the
> > founder of the Mormon church, via his personal messages to Joseph
> > Smith, Jr.?
>
> Jesus is the founder of all Christian churches.

COMMENT:
What wasn't an answer. Is the Mormon Church a Christian church?

 
> > Simple questions.
>
> You have the simple answers.
>
> Truth is simple.

COMMENT:
Not always. In this case, you and Stormin Mormon both claim to be in
contact with Jesus. But Jesus has told you diametrically opposite
things. Therefore one or both of you is lying, or is completely
deluded.

> > > > In real life, people blind from birth don't need any convincing that
> > > > others have a special sense they lack (Let's ignore that facetious HG
> > > > Wells short story). But there seems to be real problem with this
> > > > Jesus. All those people in the middle east can't see him, neither Jew
> > > > nor Muslim. Could it be sandstorms, do you think?
> > >
> > > Could be the same disease that you seem to have.
> >
> > The one I share with 2/3rds of the world's population?
>
> Is 2/3rds of the world population blind?

COMMENT:
Apparently, since only 1/3 of the world is Christian.

> > Be careful
> > when you accuse the majority of having a "disease."
>
> Speaking as a physician, diagnosing a disease is neither a judgment nor
> an accusation.

COMMENT:
It is always a judgement. Judgement is the basis of thought. Without
judgement, you cannot tell true from false.

  
> > > > So your online
> > > > credentials and your email messages stand in for you, in the meantime.
> > >
> > > God's Word is infinitely better than all these.
> >
> > But we don't have god's word.
>
> Christ is His word.

COMMENT:
How do you know? We're back to square one.

> Per His instruction, I will continue to refrain from judging others.

COMMENT:
You have judged them to be blind because they do not see what you
think you see.

  
> > > > No, actually, that's would be just the beginning. Are you kidding? Any
> > > > schmuck can call himself a god or a prophet. Proving it is the hard
> > > > part.
> > > >
> > > > SBH
> > >
> > > The proof is all around you.

COMMENT:
Sorry. No, it isn't.

> Truth is not affected by either the opinions or the judgments of others.

COMMENT:
That is a meaningless Platonic assertion which says nothing valuable.

> > > May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that
> > > you too will have eternal life and the infinite riches of His
> > > everlasting kingdom.
> >
> > May you become a Mormon or a Muslim, Dr. Chung, or otherwise your sex
> > life is going to suffer a lot after you die.
>
> With Christ there is no suffering after death for He has done all the
> suffering for us. Without Christ, there is horrible suffering
> after death.

COMMENT:
How do you know? Have you been dead yet? Communicated with the dead?
How do YOU know all this stuff you keep laying out? Is this is a
message from Andrew Chung, or a channeled answer from Crossing Over
with John Edwards?

You're just blathering pure speculation, Chung. Like John Edwards on
TV, except you don't get paid for it. To which the only proper answer
is: baloney. You not only don't know what you're talking about, but
you have no way of *knowing* what you're talking about. You're just
repeating myths and stories and nonsense.

Chung:
> May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that
> you too will have His peace and not suffer horribly for the rest of
> eternity after you die.

COMMENT:

Seriously, may YOU come to your senses and quit spouting crazy blather
about what will or will not happen to "me" or anybody else, after I
die. Then you won't look like the Mormons or the Muslims, whom I was
doing a little parody of, above. Them and sex after death is usually
good for a laugh. But they both believe in it, and they all think they
have some special insights into the after life, just like you.

It won't do you any good to come on this medical forum to tell your
patients and other interested persons how we're going to suffer
horribly after we die, depending on whether or not we do, or don't do,
this or that. As a scientist and medical man myself, I'm sorry to have
to inform you of the obvious fact that YOU, Dr. Chung, don't KNOW what
happens to people when they die. That you do, is another of your
delusions, like the Jesus business and the house-building business.

Threatening people with eternal suffering and being serious about it,
means you are full of nonsense, Dr. Chung. It means you are in kin to
con-artists of history of the very worst kind--- the sort that have
historically contributed to the unhappiness of mankind for millennia.
I speak here of the evil bastards who have made it their business to
get people worried about what's going to happen to them in the "after
life," which supposedly depends on whether or not they conform, or
believe in, some particular manifestation of god, in this life.

I hope you're heartily ashamed of pushing this. But if not, so be it.
You *should* be ashamed, even if you're not. This kind of
psychological violence is abhorrent, vicious, and ugly. Fortunately,
it's the 21st century and we're all free to call evil bastards when we
see them. I repudiate this gunk you spew. I repudiate you. I invite
you to take your fundamentalist stupid evil religious Christian
nonsense, and bugger off.

SBH

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