Re: A Few Simple Truths About ADHD

From: Toby (imtoebee_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 07/29/04 

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:46:48 -0700

"Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" <sbharris@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:79cf0a8.0407281420.13d7be8a@posting.google.com...
> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<ccvc76$lks@library1.airnews.net>...
>
> >>Give me the medical test that proves that an adult who is
> experiencing hallucinations, hearing voices and has no clue about
> reality has schizophrenia. There is none.<<
>
>
> COMMENT:
>
> Sure enough, you have a point. Alas, hearing voices nobody else can
> hear is not just one end of a normal human bell curve. ADHD is not
> like schizophrenia. It's more like shortness or puny muscles in
> children. Being really short or really puny and weak with slow onset
> of puberty can cause all kinds of problems for children at school--
> particularly boys. And these problems can be dealt with
> pharmacologically by giving growth hormone or anabolic steroids. So
> what?
>
> All this gets back to what we MEAN when we label something a
> "disease." FYI, anabolic steroids really do help in muscle wasting
> diseases. And also in puny kids. And growth hormone helps not only
> short kids who are deficient in growth hormone, but also short kids
> who are not. And it's being used in this fashion, too, as you may
> know. They have sometimes had to invent disease-like names (familial
> stature disorder, constitutional growth delay, blah) to justify
> hormonal treatment on an essentially cosmetic basis. But they do it.
> They didn't consider it before 1985, when all growth hormone was being
> extracted from the pituitaries of cadaver brains, like some bad
> science fiction movie. But now that we make it with genetic
> engineering and the safety is up and price down, suddenly we're
> branching out on what we use it for.

Actually, ADHD is labeled as a "Disorder", not a "Disease". Could you
also please cite your facts?

>
> Is drug treatment of cosmetic problems "justified"? Well, why not?
> Wouldn't boys and men all like to be faster, stronger, maybe taller,
> with perfect noses and teeth and bigger muscles where we want them?
> Sure. Does all of this need a disease diagnosis for fixing? Must we
> have a medical disease name for "nose too big" or "breasts too small"?
> I say no. I say it's all hypocrisy when we're merely modifying an end
> of a bell curve. Or shifting an entire curve over (as we do with tooth
> cosmesis and color). Let's just be honest about it, okay?
>
I can't believe how in agreement we are. I say when you get cancer,
you just accept your fate as being part of the "bell curve" and live with
it..
Your statements are based on complete ignorance. I don't take Ritalin
to be more focused. I take it so I can focus.

> FYI, there isn't a single feature of AHDH which isn't a general
> description of young mammals and the way they behave in general, as
> opposed to fully mature ones. If you've ever even trained *dogs*, you
> know that full-grown but adolescent animals have trouble with focus
> and attention and sitting still. So also children. And some grow out
> of it sooner than others. Some never grow out of it, both in dogs and
> humans. That's today's newsflash for those of you who've never tried
> to teach anything to a young mammal.
>
I think there is a big difference between dogs and humans, although
I am willing to make an exception for you.

> Do amphetamines cause unfocused children and adults to be able to
> concentrate? Sure. Adrenalin and fear, OTOH, are great at improving
> focus and attention. Nothing concentrates the mind like danger and or
> pain. That happens in everybody, and that's what "speed" does, too.
> Before there was such a thing as ADHD, there were merely "unruly
> children," and these were treated by making them exercise and
> threatening them with getting hit with a switch (an excellent inducer
> of sympathetic hormones). Now these time honored treatments are
> politically incorrect, and drugging is more correct. But do we really
> need the labels? Why not just give the drugs to all who want them, or
> all whose performance is improved by them, without having their health
> destroyed or lives disrupted by them?

I agree. I'm going to ask my boss to hit me with a switch when I'm trying
to get my work done. Do us a favor go do a time honored tradition to
yourself.

>
> Is the academic performance of ADHD kids improved *more* by
> amphetamines than that of normal kids? I know of no study which shows
> this. If it were true the response to the drug itself could be used
> for diagnosis, or used as a diagnostic criterion. It is conspicously
> not. There is at least one study showing that amphetamines improves
> academic performance in "normal" kids. But then we knew that. Speed
> has been used (we say "abused" if the disease label has not been
> applied by an authority) by students for decades. And these drugs work
> for people whose jobs require great concentration for extended
> periods. They are given out by the military to normal pilots for
> combat and even combat training (they are called "go pills"). When
> these drugs are used by truckers for the same purpose, however, we put
> them in jail. That's what "authority" can do for you: make the same
> action into a crime if you don't have permission, vs. a perfectly
> reasonable action if you do. It is the same with school children and
> Adderal.
>
Again, please cite your "studies". Also, could you please post your
credentials.

> >>Give me the medical test that proves that an adult who is totally
> clueless about the world, has no short term memory, and has been
> diagnoses with Alzhiemer's actually has Alzhiemer's. Brain biopsy.<<
>
> COMMENT:
>
> Actually a PET scan will diagnose Alzheimer's quite well. Would that
> this were true for AHDH.
>
>
> >Just because there is no gold-standard diagnositic test doesn't mean
> that the problems are biological.<<
>
> COMMENT:
>
> True, but there are many biological differences which we don't label
> as diseases. Having small breasts or short stature is certainly
> biological.

And now are small breasts and short stautre related to ADHD?

>
> >>There is much evidence that shows that the brains of people with
> ADHD are different that the brains of people without ADHD.<<
>
> COMMENT:
> Actually there is much evidence, but most of it is conflicting. I can
> name half a dozen things, from size differences to receptor densities,
> which have shown up in studies of kids diagnosed with ADHD vs.
> controls. But there is not one which every investigator has found who
> looked for it. If there was, we could diagnose this problem with a
> brain scan or imaging modality. We can't.

Please cite. I can make stupid generalizations too, and word them as
"studies have shown", but without citing my source, I would just be an
ignorant ass like yourself.

>
>
> >>Bullshit. You tell me that a child who never sits down, can't
> concentrate, and can't get anything accomplished, despite normal
> intelligence is normal.<<
>
> COMMENT:
> These children don't have normal intelligence, by definition. They
> don't do as well on intelligence tests, because they can't. Deficits
> in problem solving ability and short term memory are very common in
> ADHD, just as you'd expect. The name for this syndrome used to be
> "minimal brain dysfunction", and not for nothing. But it was never
> very well-defined. Bill Cosby has a famous skit about how ALL children
> have minimal brain dysfunction (he actually says brain damage), and of
> course he's right. That's why we don't let children have certain adult
> choices and privileges.
>
For your information, I'm a software architect (I design software), and make
a six figure income. In other words, I'm paid very well to solve problems
using
my IQ.

>
> >>Actually, the evidence that peole with ADHD do have a chemical
> imbalance is
> overwhelming.<<
>
> COMMENT:
> Actually, it isn't. What chemical would this be? Ritalin? Evidently
> it's not simply dopamine, or else these kids would all be treated with
> L-DOPA (Sinemet, which they use for Parkinson's disease). DOPA was
> tried for a while in the early 80's for kids with attention problems,
> but it never produced results impressive enough to win out in
> treatment.
>
Cites please.

> >>I doubt many medical professions have the time to explain the way
> the brain
> works to each patient.<<
>
> Nonsense. "Medical professionals" have very little idea about what is
> happening in the brain of the "hyperactive" child. Or the normal one,
> for that matter. We have guesses only. Fidgeting looks like too much
> dopamine (akathesia), not too little. Learning deficits could be too
> little dopamine, or anything else in the entire reward system.
> Amphetamines increase dopamine, but they also work like
> norepinephrine.
>
Cites please.

> >The lie that Ritalin is a mild
> > stimulant is even more difficult to maintain since a recently
> > concluded study at the Brookhaven National Laboratory (BNL), and
> > published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, not only
> > confirmed the similarities of cocaine and Ritalin, but found that
> > Ritalin is more potent than cocaine in its effect on the dopamine
> > system in the brain. Referring to Ritalin as "kiddy cocaine" is not a
> > joke.
>
> >>Nor is it accurate. Whlile the two drugs do work on similar
> receptors, they
> have very different effects, becuase the way they are taken is very
> different and the time course of their actions are very different.<<
>
> COMMENT:
>
> Well, all drugs are different. But the fact that amphetamines are used
> for this problem rather than dopamine agonists (including dopamine
> itself) means that this hypothesis just isn't up to snuff.
>
According to your detailed study of it? Please quit spewing.

> >>Actually, to imply that ADHD is not a real condition is a lie. Or
> ignorance.<<
>
> COMMENT:
> Actually, the whole argument about whether or not medical conditions
> are "real" or not, is pretty funny. But in any case, I've been over
> this issue. ADHD is as real as puny muscles in kids who want to be
> sports heros. Whether or not anabolic steroids are the answer for some
> or all of these children, is the question before us.
>

It's hardly been as real as "puny muscles" for me.
In the past I had to apply tremendous pressure and anxiety on myself in
order
to focus enough to get my work done. Alas, this technique quit working for
me
after 33 years of it caused me to quit functionaing altogether. Pressure and
anxiety
now immoblize me. Ritalin has helped me to get back on track, to be able to
work without applying tremendouse pressure and anxiety on myself. Instead
of feeling that life is a constant battle, I now feel that life is great and
enjoy work.

> > The truth is that protecting your children
> > from toxic drugs is being completely responsible. It is those who
> > advocate these drugs for children who are abdicating responsibility
> > and avoiding the challenge of truly meeting the needs of our children.
>
> >>Wrong. It is enabling the child to concentate and achieve on his or
> her own.
>
I'd continue to rebudle your ignorant commetns, but I have grown tired of
you, as I am sure that most people of this Support group have. Please
do us a favor and keep you ignorant comments to yourself, and don't post
them as "facts" and "studies".
You might also consider respecting the people of this group. It is a support
group for those of us who have ADHD, not a forum to try and prove
an ignorant thesis.
Toby

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The hard kid
    ... it is *so* unfair to kids struggling with ADHD to allow ... stopped medicating. ... to one drug does not mean that there aren't any drugs that would ... to the kids they treat, but it is still a battle to get help with ADD. ...
    (misc.kids)
  • Re: Hi every one, new to this group!
    ... Why mute it with drugs? ... of kids with ADHD. ... kids "just" because they're not couch potatoes. ... Are three year olds in "classroom settings"? ...
    (misc.kids)
  • Re: Brave New World
    ... A brain scan will show ADHD. ... And the kids who have it, ... down with ritalin and other stimulants - it's called a paradoxal effect. ... Went off drugs. ...
    (rec.music.gdead)
  • The Tragic Consequences of Drugging Our Children - Video
    ... The number of prescriptions for psychotropic drugs for children has ... kids are often labeled with ADHD simply for acting like kids: ... these potent drugs, such as Ritalin, to your children -- and the ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: A Few Simple Truths About ADHD
    ... And also in puny kids. ... Does all of this need a disease diagnosis for fixing? ... And these drugs work ... brain scan or imaging modality. ...
    (sci.med)