Re: Obese victims at greater risk of dying from crashes and other accidents

From: Lictor (ghostmlNOSPAM-REMOVE_at_online.fr)
Date: 09/21/04 

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:17:20 +0200

"Daedalus" <jade@net-kooks.org> wrote in message
news:edh0l05sahqrqgirbdc8eeu1ofq49s3u7g@4ax.com...
> Your meandering pontification sounds really nice, but it's all
> conjecture.

That's just the way medecine has progressed so far. Bleeding edge stuff that
only benefited a handful of people, and then it gets applied to the more
general population. I won't see why the trend would stop.

> I think we'd know by now if it was a problem for muscular
> people. I haven't seen any articles about that being a problem, but
> this is the latest of several I've seen regarding obese people.

Hint: people love to hear stories about fat ugly people. Journalists do
their job for a living, they publish what people want to read. Noone is
interrested about hearing bad things happening to Mr MuscleMan. How often do
you read reports about ex-champs dying from a heart attack at fifty? Yet,
they do, thanks to the wonderful and healthy chemicals they stuff themselves
with.
Besides, quite a few very muscular types also have a significant amount of
body fats. Only bodybuilders aim to lower their body fat, the others just
aim for maximum strength.

> Most likely because obese people are geneally much thicker than all
> but your most muscular olympian weight lifter.

It's thicker but fat is also a lot less dense. It's often mixed with a lot
of water too. Thickness is not everything.

> > In fact, medical advances pushed by extreme
> >conditions (wars, military research, medical "stunts"...) have always
> >eventually benefited to the general population.
>
> When you say "extreme conditions" are you referring to obesity as an
> extreme condition? Otherwise I'm not sure how this relates.

Of course. I mean, we are talking *extreme* obesity here. A "regular" 300lbs
obese will have no trouble fitting in the current machines. Likewise, if two
firemen have troubles lifting and carrying a 300lbs obese, *they* really
ought to seek a new job. I mean, even back when I was at 300lbs, four tiny
women had no problem carrying me around, once taught the proper technic.
While practicing Judo, a skilled female partner had no trouble throwing me
around either. Firemen are skilled, I would expect them to perform without
problem up to the low end of massive obesity.
So, we are talking about the minority of people who weight in the 400 or
maybe 500+ range. Yes, that's pretty extreme. Just like dealing with cancer
in a 6 months old baby is extreme, or dealing with a terminal heart
condition in an anorexic is. That's not a judgement in worthiness to admit
that these cases are indeed extreme.

> Why don't we spend the money encouraging obese people to lose weight
> since the health system is becoming financially taxed between them and
> the smokers of the world anyway.

I believe in prevention too. In fact you haven't noticed, my country is
doing a lot better than the USA on the obesity front. Likewise, we are
reducing the number of smokers. We are keeping the number of heart diseases
manageable (one third of the death rate of the USA). Money has been invested
in proper nutrition in schools and proper city planning to make healthy food
available to everyone. Proper healthcare also makes it possible to catch up
diseases early on, rather than wait until people hit the ER and are in
terminal condition. Guaranteed revenues have made it so that people do not
have to survive on junk foods alone.
As a result, we don't have to deal with the issue of beyond-massive obeses
as much as you do. We spent a lot of money on prevention, we have three
times less obese people, and only 0.5% beyond the 40 BMI mark. You did not
invest in prevention, so, obviously, you will have to spend money to deal
with the consequences.

> Wouldn't it make sense to you to focus on the cuases of disease and cancer
as well as the detection
> systems?

You mean, banning cars to reduce air pollution and the like? Sure, we should
do that. But you can't prevent all the causes of cancer and disease. The
main cause remains aging. As long as we allow people to live longer, they
*will* develop this kind of diseases. Prevention does not make people
immortal.

> That is an assumption that has no basis whatsoever, unless you have a
> background in magnetic resonance imaging, ultrasound and x-ray physics
> and can tell me for a fact that that will be a result of using more
> powerful machines.

And people probably had similar doubts about the reconstructive surgery of
WWI leading to a new pair of buttocks for J-Lo. Yet, it did. When you force
competition and innovation in a field like this, you usually come up with
interresting things.

> You could equally hypothesize that using more powerful machines could
> actually be dangerous to thin people.

I doubt engineers would be that dumb, but you never know...

> >Anyway, the way the USA is heading, 60% of the population will be obese
in a
> >few years.
>
> I suppose you dont' see a problem with that.

Whether I see a problem with that or not won't change anything about that
trend... That's just the plain numbers and the way the country is heading.
It's not like they will change anything to my personnal life, I don't live
in the country.

> And you can say with 100% certainty that no one is trying to find real
> solutions, or just not that you've heard about, just not in your
> opinion, just not any solutions that you agree with?

Well, what kind of solution do you think is being applied? Genetic research?
Right, 60% of Americans just caught a genetic disease... Research from the
diet industry? LOL! Diets do not work statistically. It's not even in the
best interrest of the diet industry to have them work anyway. Research in
yet another miracle pill? Right, a new pill at $10 a piece, that you have to
take for life and that will cause an average net weight loss of 10 pounds.
I'm sure that will do wonders for the healthcare costs!
I see reports on the "War on Obesity", and it would be funny if the matter
was not that serious. The whole campain is aimed at keeping tax payers and
voters happy, not at solving the problem. I expect absolutely zero results
from it.
There are indeed a bunch of people trying to find a real way to make as many
dollars as possible out of the obesity epidemia. They do that by researching
and applying protocols that have been researched and applied unsuccessfully
for decades : diets, drugs, non-specific exercises...

> It seems to me there is a ubiquity of concern in American venues from
> hospitals and media to the legislature over obesity these days.

They are sure making a lot of noise about it. Unfortunately, being concerned
and noisy about a problem does not solve it. Thinking out of the box does.
The obesity epidemia is a psychosociocultural phenomenon, that gets
compounded with genetic and metabolic issues. Yet, practically noone is
trying to deal with it along these lines. I guess noone is interrested in
finding a solution that would be essentially cheap, like making some society
changes, some education and curing people once and for all...

> I'd find it highly surprising if among all of those professionals and
> concerned citizens no one was actually trying to find a real solution.

I would be surprised if they did. In research, you don't need a bunch of
idiots doing the same thing, you just need a few genius doing the right
thing. If indeed someone found a real solution, who do you expect will get
listened to? The guy with the cheap solution, or the corporation with the
$10 wonder pill (who also happens to pay the President for his campain)?

> You sound like a fat acceptor.

Do I?
It depends on what you call fat acceptor I guess...
Do I believe that people ought to lose some weight when they are obese?
Certainly, but not at all cost, and only if the loss is sustainable.
Do I believe that obeses should diet all the way down to slim? Only if they
wish. It's perfectly reasonnable to stop halfway, when optimal balance
between health, comfort, self esteem and sustainability is reached.
Do I think that obesity is unhealthy? Yes, within reason (i.e. being
slightly overweight is reasonnably healthy, going from massive obese to
moderate obese might be healthy enough...).
Do I believe losing weight is easy? Well, it is for me so far, but I don't
think it's that easy for everyone.
Do I believe losing weight is complex? Yes. I believe energy in-energy out
is only the tip of the iceberg. Weight loss is a complex issue.
Do I believe that obese people should receive proper assistance when they
wish to lose weight? Of course. A bipolar or an anorexic will receive a
fully qualified support, from a psychiatrist and a number of specialist.
That's the only way these can succeed in overcoming their condition. Yet, an
obese is supposed to receive help from women magazines, books written by
crooks, or, at best, a dietitian (a mere technician, a non-doctor)?
Do I believe that people ought to be judge for who they are rather than how
they look? Sure. I hate racism in all its forms, why should I stop hating it
when it concerns obeses?
Do I believe that society should stop pushing people towards a single body
type model? Damn right!
Put me in whatever little slot you wish, if you really have to put people in
slots for your peace of mind...

> How many customers would they alienate if the cost of obesity negated
> the affordability for everyone else?

Given that Americans seem willing to pay an awful amount of money for their
healthcare or overpriced drugs, I don't think this is an issue. The industry
knows that they can ask any amount of money, and that people will eventually
pay. They have no reason to lower their prices. In a society that is
increasingly hypocondriac, the health industry is in the same position the
clergy was in the middle ages : they hold the key to what everyone desire
the most. That's priceless.
Besides, it's not like you have much choice. When you have a vital issue, I
don't think you will refuse the treatment and try to negociate the price
down. There is no competition left in the medical field, the few actors in
the market have no real presure to compete when they can just agree to keep
the prices high. As a patient, you don't have any real power to make them
compete anyway.

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