Re: clinton surgery question

From: Bob (this one) (Bob_at_nospam.com)
Date: 09/22/04 

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 06:42:48 -0400

John wrote:

> On 21 Sep 2004 19:50:29 -0700, sbharris@ix.netcom.com (Steve Harris
> sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>
>>John <john9212112@aol.com> wrote in message news:<nbdsk0dma9btpdrd1u96a7kjrr9dil9fud@4ax.com>...
>>
>>>>Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
>>>>The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
>>>>humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
>>>>time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
>>>>dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
>>>>disease.
>>>>
>>>>So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
>>>>away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
>>>>somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
>>>>does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
>>>>answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
>>>>prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
>>>>human) to pray for him/her/itself.
>>>>
>>>>You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
>>>>things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
>>>>and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
>>>>everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
>>>>atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?
>>>
>>>You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
>>>everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
>>>die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
>>>(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
>>>life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.
>>
>>
>>COMMENT:
>>
>>Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
>>you think all of it is necessary.
>
> A good portion of the agony in the world is caused by people's free
> will choices.

Could you even begin to stick to topic, shitwit "John?" Here, address
this - nothing about free will here:
"A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria, and tuberculosis in this world
would go the way of smallpox. And everybody would get something to
eat, too."

Forget your bull*** party line. Address what Steve spoke to. Start here:
"For simplicity's sake, please confine your answer to third party
intercession, where the innocent suffer being prayed for is too ill or
too young or two mentally impaired (animal or human) to pray for
him/her/itself."

> Would you be willing to give up free will to avoid rape
> and murder? Unfortunately, free will allows people to make bad,
> really bad choices that harm themselves and others. But free will
> without the ability to make a bad choice isn't free will, is it?

But then you assert that it's all according to God's plan. BANG. No
free will. Now comes the sophistic nonsense to justify and accommodate
two mutually exclusive ideas.

> Why do we have free will anyway? Recall that the Bible teaches that
> we were made in God's image. I believe that this free will aspect is
> one attribute in which we are most like God.

"I believe..." NOte the rigorous proofs...

Fool.

> Certainly, we are not
> omnipotent, immortal beings, but we do have this free will thing. The
> other way we are in God's image is the ability to love.

Love like you, Chung, MU_ ppet, Carol display? It's love all right,
for a sufficiently deprived sense of respect and affection.

Actual smart people who have considered this question say that we're
most like God in our rationality. That we have a sense of past and
future unlike animals. That we have a fuller body of emotions and a
broader range of expressions.

>>If somebody raped and killed your
>>daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
>>about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
>>philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
>>complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
>>will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
>>some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
>>have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.
>
> You've gone beyond the hypothetical here with me.

DUH, featherweight. That's the whole point. Forget your theoretical
claptrap. Get real with this subject.

> The hardest thing
> in my life was to face the fact that my daughter was gone and nothing
> could bring her back....and that it was caused by the free will choice
> of the perpetrators. But would I be willing to give up free will so
> that this would not have happened? No.
>
>>Or if was the doctor you'd gone to about your leukemic kid and I told
>>you, "well, that's life. What do you want, for the kid to be immortal
>>maybe. Would you be willing to give up the blessings of life to avoid
>>the pain of death? Not me, bub." I think you might need restraining
>>at that point as well.
>
> I think this would be easier to face because there is no perpetrator
> involved. Still extremely difficult, but having faced the one I think
> I'd have preferred the other. There are also no forgiveness issues
> with a disease as there are with murderers. Figuring out how to
> follow Jesus' teaching to forgive our enemies was very difficult to
> do. It took me 14 years to work it out.

<LOL> If your behavior here is any indication, it's 14 wasted years.

>>That's the problem with believers. It's all that hypocrisy.
>
> It'd be more correct to say, "That's the problem with human beings.
> It's all that hypocrisy."

Nah. You wacko fundies try to posit everything in light of some divine
supervisor who controls the universe to its smallest detail and then
talk about this free will (that exists only in the most general
terms). It's almost as though things like instinct, chemical
imbalances, traumas, training, deprivation, etc. don't influence how
people behave. As though it all happens in a vacuum and only the
purity of a freely made decision is how the world actually works. Only
a superficial nincompoop like you believes that there are no
compulsions directing people, to some lesser or greater degree. You
have to look no further than your demented hero Chung to see how his
obsessions and compulsions force him to behave irrationally,
self-destructively, dishonestly. Much like you, anonymous "john."

>>When
>>you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
>>you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
>>heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
>>your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
>>somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
>>about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.
>
> There's a country song with the words, "Lord, I want to go to Heaven,
> but I don't want to go tonight." Death is not to be feared but it is
> not to be embraced either. I intend to do everything I can to
> maximize my time here on Earth without messing up my eternal life.
> I'm wondering where you get these strange misconceptions of what the
> Christian life is like.

 From the insanities your and your unbalanced kinds post, how you act
in daily life, and what the fundies in and out of government do. Your
blindness to your own actions and your eagerness to ignore the real
penalties and prices of your actions point to the real sin of your
view. You're "pick and choose" Christians. Fakes...

Bob