Re: Some brain questions i need help with

From: John Hasenkam (johnh_at_faraway.)
Date: 09/24/04 

Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:46:22 +1000

"dan michaels" <feedbackdroids@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8d8494cf.0409231326.423c1877@posting.google.com...
> "John Hasenkam" <johnh@faraway.> wrote in message
news:<4152ca3a@dnews.tpgi.com.au>...
> > "dan michaels" <feedbackdroids@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:8d8494cf.0409210823.74d0fa11@posting.google.com...
> > > "John Hasenkam" <johnh@faraway.> wrote in message
> > news:<414fc8ea$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>...
> > > > There are also numerous studies showing how easy it is to implant
false
> > > > memories. To my knowledge Penfield never bothered to confirm the
> > accuracy of
> > > > the patients' recall.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Indeed. Penfield was stimulating the "creation" of memory-like mental
> > > experiences. This says more about how the internal processing works
> > > than the validity of what it's creating. [ie, the "critical" facility
> > > - whatever that is - was possibly not engaged].
> > >
> > > Similarly, you can create mental images that don't exist in the
> > > outside world, and obviously when you dream, your brain is producing
> > > internal experiences that are purely made up. These last sounds very
> > > similar to what Penfield was evoking.
> > >
> > > That being said, maybe you [JH] can answer the question I posed not
> > > long ago. When we dream, we appear to be unconscious to the outside
> > > world, but in fact the "I" that is experiencing the dream "thinks"
> > > itself to be conscious inside the dream. [you'll just have to take
> > > this last on face value in case you one of the ones who supposedly
> > > never dreams].
> >
> > There is one important difference there, in dreaming we observe
ourselves
> > making decisions, we don't participate in making those decisions(stole
this
> > from hobson text).
>
>
> Hmmm, this is a good one. I'm not so sure I agree with that. We don't
> observe ourselves, that would be 3rd party. I never see my "virtual
> dream body", rather I'm always "looking out" at the virtual dream
> world, just as I'm looking out at the keyboard now. From "inside", as
> the dream-"I". The difference is, inside a dream, the inner-"I" is
> looking at a virtual world, out here the real-"I" is looking out at a
> real world. Recursive craziness!!
>
> That's prolly not what you meant, however. Rather we engage in the
> experiences inside the dream as the primary 1st-person actor, but we
> have little control over the course of the action. We're more carried
> along than deciding where to go. That's prolly what you meant.
> ================

The "I' is a Dead Soul (DS) because in my dreams I don't have access to the
inner world of the DS in the dream, end of recursion. The DS makes decisions
like an actor in a play but without narration. Yes, difficult to get out and
my earlier post was not clear because I had not woken up and not finished my
first cup of coffee. Contrast it in relation to those rare events
of lucid dreams where the "I" is involved in the decision making process and
so not a DS.

>
> Additionally, in my experience at least, when dreams
> > generate physical absurdities(eg. flying), I am not overly perturbed by
the
> > same. I am pleasantly surprised but not astounded.
>
>
> It's usually fun.
> =============
>
>
> If it happened when
> > conscious, I'd be questioning my sanity and I'm too old to do that. I
wonder
> > if this tolerance of physical absurdities is in some way related to the
> > inhibition of motor control. To put it crudely, the "I" in dreams is a
Dead
> > Soul(so I wonder if Ian Curtis, songwriter for Joy Division, had this in
> > mind when he wrote that wonderfully despairing song). Affect is largely
> > diminished possibly because affect often requires activation of other
> > physiological systems(eg adrenal cortices).
> >
>
>
> Hmmm, this is even stranger than your comment above. In fact, activity
> in the outer sensory and motor areas may be highly-attenuated when in
> a dream, but emotions certainly are not. Many times I wake up from a
> dream because the emotional weight is too great ... someone dying,
> etc. Hardly the behavior of a dead soul. In fact, at these times, I
> think, the emotional content is so great that it breaks through the
> motor inhibition and causes your entire body to lurch/etc. Ever wake
> up drenched in sweat?
> ===================

Yes, see my other post in this thread. The Hobson text also notes that one
emotional element often present in dreams is the fight/flight response.
Emotions are present but not in the full range of emotions, there is for me
at least a noticeable loss of affect.

Thanks Dan, a good start for my return to this ng.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Some brain questions i need help with
    ... inner world of the DS in the dream, ... > in the outer sensory and motor areas may be highly-attenuated when in ... Ever wake ... Emotions are present but not in the full range of emotions, ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: Some brain questions i need help with
    ... This says more about how the internal processing works ... >> internal experiences that are purely made up. ... When we dream, we appear to be unconscious to the outside ... but emotions certainly are not. ...
    (sci.med)
  • Re: Some brain questions i need help with
    ... This says more about how the internal processing works ... >> internal experiences that are purely made up. ... When we dream, we appear to be unconscious to the outside ... but emotions certainly are not. ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: Some brain questions i need help with
    ... >> a dream, but emotions certainly are not. ... Many times I wake up from a ... >> etc. Hardly the behavior of a dead soul. ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: Some brain questions i need help with
    ... >> a dream, but emotions certainly are not. ... Many times I wake up from a ... >> etc. Hardly the behavior of a dead soul. ...
    (sci.med)