Re: Vaccination: Dr. Israeli's straw man machination

From: Hillary Israeli (hillary_at_hillary.net)
Date: 01/13/05 

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:39:08 +0000 (UTC)

In <IEkFd.5374$pZ4.2283@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Todd Gastaldo <tgastaldo@earthlink.net> wrote:

*It is commonly believed that MDs are pro-immunization when in fact MDs are
*quite ANTI-immunization, lying by omission thereby denying massive numbers
*of babies massive numbers of free daily immunizations. See below.
*
*Vaccination fraud is relatively minor compared to this latter MD
*immunization fraud.
*
*Veterinarian Hillary Israeli, VMD SEEMS to indicate that she does not want
*to see this MAJOR immunization fraud of MDs exposed - because (she says)
*"plenty of women" do not wish to breastfeed. I hope I am wrong.

Oy vey. I made no statement as to whether or not I wish to expose fraud,
actually. I did make a statement that at this time, there is no clearly
fraudulent activity among MDs with respect to vaccine efficacy as far as I
can tell. At no time did I address the issue of whether or not physicians
should promote breastfeeding. I did state that contrary to your statement,
there are some women who would choose not to bf even if an MD said she
should. I know women like that and I stand by the statement. I really am
irritated by the way you quote me out of context with commentary
suggesting I made statements I never made. At some point, this will become
a serious libel issue, so please be careful.
 
* *On the lesser immunization issue, Hillary indicates she does not think
*parents should be informed about organized medicine's obvious vaccination
*promotion fraud. (See "No, actually, it's a risk analysis situation" below.)

Parents should be informed of the FACTS. There is no "obvious vaccination
promotion fraud" to inform parents about.

*> You pretended (in effect) that I said that vaccination package inserts
*> don't
*> indicate that vaccinations are not 100% effective. (I never said this.)
*>
*
*[Hillary] I did not pretend any such thing, "in effect" or otherwise.
*
*[Todd] Yes you did - you cited "standardized information sheets" as evidence
*that MDs don't say that vaccinations are 100% effective! I QUOTED YOU. It
*was a straw man argument which you've just embellished, see below.

But (most) MDs do NOT say that. It is not a straw man argument. It is a
fact.

*> You pretended that MDs having school bureaucrats tell parents (those
*> seeking
*> vaccine exemptions) that only THEIR children will be sent home during
*> disease outbreaks is not the fraudulent promotion of vaccinations as being
*> 100% effective.
*
*[Hillary] Again, I did not pretend any such thing.
*
*[Todd] LOL! MDs are IGNORING this fraud and deception - silently promoting
*vaccinations as being 100% effective - dishonestly coercing parents to
*vaccinate and endangering some vaccinated children in the process.

You're either lying, or you are sadly mistaken.

*[Todd] I say again: MDs are IGNORING this fraud and deception - silently
*promoting vaccinations as being 100% effective - dishonestly coercing

Silently promoting? WTF is that? I think you're very confused.

*
*[Hillary] No, actually, it's a risk analysis situation. Those who were
*vaccinated
*are MORE LIKELY to be safe in the face of an outbreak.
*
*[Todd] No, actually, it's an informed consent CHARADE - a FRAUD. But you
*snipped the MD calling it a charade.

Huh?

*[Todd] To stop the fraud, MDs need to start explicitly discussing the "MORE
*LIKELY to be safe" idea - actually encouraging parents to weigh all the
*facts and make an INFORMED decision. Currently, MDs are concealing facts -
*running a vaccination informed consent CHARADE. An obvious fraud is
*occurring and you are helping to promote it.

Well, I don't know where these MDs you are talking about practice, but it
is not in the greater Philly area that's for sure. You must know a shady
bunch.

Anyway, this risk analysis thing is not rocket science. It's common sense.

*[Hillary] Those who were not vaccinated are LESS LIKELY to be safe in the
*face of an outbreak.
*
*[Todd] Again, MDs need to tell PARENTS that - MDs need to openly admit the
*obvious vaccination promotion fraud - MDs need to stop the informed consent

There is no obvious fraud, and there are no big MD lies, and you're
completely pulling this out of the air as far as I can tell!

*[Hillary] Seriously Todd, plenty of women just do not want to BF
*because they don't want to do it, because they find it gross or disgusting
*or offensive or whatever, and they couldn't give a rat's behind if it
*prevents cancer and makes terrific cole slaw at the same time. I'm not
*exaggerating. I have met at least one woman who thinks this way.
*
*[Todd] WHAT? Are you saying don't end the MD fraud - don't explicitly inform
*women that they are IMMUNIZERS who immunize their babies daily and
*reportedly make MD-needle vaccinations work better - because "plenty" of
*women find breastfeeding gross or disgusting? I don't follow your logic...

No, I'm not saying that. You quoted what I said. THAT is what I said. Stop
putting your bizarrely phrased, fanatical weirdness into my mouth, please.

I think doctors SHOULD promote breastfeeding. In my experience, they do.
Every OB/perinatologist with whom I have worked at the U of PA health
system (so, that's three on a regular basis and several others on a
one-off situation) has urged me to BF, even in the face of mastitis or
infant jaundice or whatever, because it is best for me and the baby.
Similarly all of my pediatricians and my GP have all urged me to continue
BFing in the face is problems, or to start BF in the case of prenatal
counseling appointments. All the docs I talk to are very pro-BF and I
think that is great. However, it remains true that as I said some women
still will not BF. Get over it.

*[Todd] Straw man - now you embellish your straw man with "risk free." (!) I
*never said MDs say vaccinations are "risk free." Nor did I ever say that
*"standardized information sheets" don't say vaccinations are 100% effective

Todd, you said doctors claim vaccines are 100% effective. If they are
giving you a handout saying vaccines are NOT 100% effective, then clearly
they are NOT claiming 100% efficacy!

Anyway. I gotta go. 

-- 
			  Hillary Israeli, VMD
		      Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is 
                  too dark to read." --Groucho Marx
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