Re: of plague dogs and cryonics

Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com wrote:

All you're really left
with in medicine, is what makes people suffer or what gives them joy.

Ah yes, happiness is to be found at a doctor's office.... 


COMMENT:
Sometimes. There's also a lot to be said for alleviation of misery.


It's actually quite easy to see if an infant is able to eat properly 

(this word has very strange cononations in what passes for English in
the US - it somehow implies manners another foreign concept to many
Americans) as in s/he can is able to suck and swallow without having
the
milk come back out his/her nose. Nothing moral about it - just a simple

observation. It's also not difficult to hear whether or not s/he can
speak properly in his/her native language. Speech is also rather
important. OTOH if the ability to eat and speak aren't affected I'm not

quite sure why you'd bother to fix a cleft palate. <<

COMMENT

You are still missing the point. I'll try again. It's not whether
speech is affected, but *how much* it's affected. It's possible to be
perfectly understandable, but still sound odd with nasal speech if
there is air escape through the nose. The child may suffer "only"
social problems as a result of other children's abuse, no different
than if he had a big nose or buck teeth or whatever. Indeed, nasal
defects are also encountered with cleft palate. The nose may be flat or
asymmetrical. Is the repair of this "cosmetic" or not?   Is surgery
wanted?  Is surgery needed?

The point is that there's a gray area here which is up to the
individual, and it isn't obvious to all observers what "needs" to be
done surgically, by some kind of simple inspection, as you seem to be
arguing above (if not, what IS your point?).   A flat or asymmetrical
nose associated with a palatine abnormality this problem may look like
anybody else's flat or asymmetrical nose which DOESN'T come with the
cleft palate. Are you going to "fix" one and not the other?

You just don't get it, do you?


Most of these cases are the result of (mistaken) medical interventions 

during delivery and in the case of stress incontinence, the use of post

menopausal hormones, doctors should learn to keep their hands off in
the
first place.<<

COMMENT:

Shear nonsense and baloney which you cannot back up with clinical
studies. In particular HRT has been looked at in postmenopausal women,
and blinded studies show it doesn't affect stress incontinence one way
or the other (and I CAN back that up with studies). You're dreaming.
Let's see your data.  You can just make this up as you go along, but
I'm going to call you on it.



Keep calling, and try to catch up on your reading.

1: Minerva Ginecol. 2003 Dec;55(6):511-7. 	Related Articles, Links

No effect of HRT on health-related quality of life in postmenopausal women with heart disease.

Sherman AM, Shumaker SA, Sharp P, Reboussin DM, Kancler C, Walkup M, Herrington DM.

    Department of Psychology, Brandeis University, Waltman, MA, USA.

AIM: Previous clinical studies suggest hormone replacement therapy (HRT) alleviates menopausal symptoms and may improve health-related quality of life (HRQL). Most studies on HRT and HRQL were limited in duration (12 months or less) and scope (few and non-standard HRQL measures). The aim of this paper is to assess HRQL in the Estrogen Replacement and Athe-rosclerosis (ERA) trial. METHODS: A subset of women within a randomized, blinded, placebo-controlled secondary prevention trial has been studied in outpatient and community settings at 5 US sites. A total of 246 postmenopausal women with angiographically documented heart disease (mean age 66 years, 83% Caucasian) were enrolled in the ERA trial. Participants received either 0.625 mg/day conjugated equine estrogen only, estrogen plus 2.5 mg/day medroxyprogesterone acetate, or placebo. HRQL was assessed using validated questionnaire instruments at baseline and follow-up (mean 3.2 years of trial). Physical and mental functioning, life satisfaction, depressive symptoms, urinary incontinence, sleep disturbance, and frequency and intensity of physical symptoms were evaluated. RESULTS: In this group of women with established coronary disease, active therapy was not significantly associated with more favorable outcomes for any HRQL. The estrogen-only group reported more urinary incontinence than the placebo group (p<0.05). Analyses restricted to adherent women (those who took gs;80% of pills) showed a similar pattern of results, showing that the estrogen only group reported significantly higher urinary incontinence compared to placebo (p<0.01). CONCLUSION: The hormone replacement regimens in the ERA trial did not improve HRQL of postmenopausal women with heart disease.

1: Curr Womens Health Rep. 2002 Oct;2(5):373-81. 	Related Articles, Links

    Medical issues and hormone replacement therapy.

    Harris PF.

Washington Hospital Center, Geriatrics and Long Term Care, Room 2B-39, 110 Irving Street, NW, Washington, DC 20010, USA. patricia.f.harris@xxxxxxxxxxx

The debate surrounding postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy (HRT) has become more contentious in the past decade. The relationship between HRT and venous thrombotic events has been confirmed, although the absolute risk is small. Evidence of a relationship between breast cancer and HRT is stronger. Randomized controlled trials reveal an association with cardiovascular events in women with known heart disease, a possibly diminished overall quality of life due to HRT, and worsening of urinary incontinence. There is also some evidence associating HRT with ovarian cancer. However, longitudinal studies continue to demonstrate over the long term that HRT use is associated with fewer cardiovascular events and a reduced risk of developing dementia. Future studies may show that a lower daily dose of HRT can reduce the risks while still providing benefit.

    PMID: 12215310 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Obstet Gynecol. 2004 Feb;103(2):254-60. Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Postmenopausal hormone therapy and risk of developing urinary incontinence.

    Grodstein F, Lifford K, Resnick NM, Curhan GC.

Channing Laboratory and Renal Division, Department of Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital, 181 Longwood Avenue, Boston, MA 02115, USA. fran.grodstein@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

OBJECTIVE: To better understand associations between post-menopausal hormone therapy and the development of urinary incontinence. METHODS: Postmenopausal hormone use was assessed via biennial mailed questionnaires beginning in 1976 among Nurses' Health Study participants. In 1996, 39,436 post-menopausal women aged 50-75 years reported no leaking of urine and were followed-up for 4 years to identify incident cases of incontinence. We used logistic regression to estimate multivariable-adjusted relative risks (RRs) and 95% confidence intervals (CIs) for the relation of postmenopausal hormone use from 1976 to 1996 to the development of incontinence from 1996 to 2000. RESULTS: We identified 5,060 incident cases of occasional (leaking urine 1-3 times/month) and 2,495 cases of frequent incontinence (leaking at least weekly) for average yearly incidence rates of 3.2% and 1.6%, respectively. The risk of incontinence was elevated among women taking postmenopausal hormones compared with women who had never taken hormones (oral estrogen: RR 1.54, 95% CI 1.44, 1.65; transdermal estrogen: RR 1.68, 95% CI 1.41, 2.00; oral estrogen with progestin: RR 1.34, 95% CI 1.24, 1.44; transdermal estrogen with progestin: RR 1.46, 95% CI 1.16, 1.84). There was little risk after the cessation of hormones (RR 1.14, 95% CI 1.06, 1.23) and a decreasing risk of incontinence with increasing time since last hormone use; 10 years after stopping hormones, the risk was identical in women who had and had never taken hormone therapy (RR 1.02, 95% CI 0.91, 1.14). CONCLUSION: Postmenopausal hormone therapy appears to increase risk of developing urinary incontinence. This risk does not vary by route of administration, type of hormones, or dose taken, but is diminished upon cessation of use. LEVEL OF EVIDENCE: II-2


It's certainly incumbant upon them to fix the problems they 

created. And life is not fair, as you pointed out. <<

To blame doctors for stress incontinence in women is frankly paranoid.
And without foundation.


Yeah, all that obstetric "management" doesn't harm the perineum at all does it?


Do you suppose some people might be infertile because of their genes - 

that the biological children of such people might be carriers of really
awful genetic diseases? <<
COMMENT:
Possibly in some cases, but mostly the answer (which we know from IVF)
is "no."

We know nothing of the kind and we won't until several generations have 

passed and there are enough of such children around that they begin to
reproduce with each other.<<

COMMENT:

Give me a break. I could give you the same argument for kids with cleft
palate, who we help reproduce when we repair them. In fact, cleft
palate kids, unlike IVF kids, actually HAVE been found to have
increased mortality well into later life (at least to age 55), even in
an advanced medicine Western country like Denmark where they all get
good early care of the obvious problem. So probably cleft palate is
visible the tip of the iceberg of a whole much of genetic defects. How
do you know what will happen if you help such people breed?  Answer:
you don't. *But so what?*  And that's the same question I have for you
as regards infertile people.

Again, if your purpose is to limit breeding by withdrawing funding for
medical fertility help in people with genetic defects, or who even
MIGHT have genetic defects in your fevered imagination (your IVF
objection), then say so directly. Don't be shy. Eugenics is not the
usual liberal stance, but what the heck.

You must have me confused with someone who wants to interfere in people's lives. You do understand that IVF is interfering in people's lives? However, I think nature probably knows best when humans are infertile. As you point out here, up to 50% of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion because the embryo is abnormal. Primary infertility may well be the extreme of this species protective continuum.


And then there's the issue of first checking 

and implanting only "normal" embryos, selectively and  then aborting
those that turn out to be not normal after all. In short you've already

stacked the deck and you still have no idea of the long term
consequences. <<

COMMENT

You never do, with any technology. You don't with correcting cleft
palate. Again, so what? If that was sufficient reason to stop progress,
you wouldn't be making this argument on a personal computer over the
internet. You'd be putting it as graffitos on a rock wall with red ocre
and a bearskin brush.

BTW, nature aborts 30 to 50% of embryos anyway, and many of these have
genetic defects.  But are you really arguing against providing
reproductive help to people with "genetic defects"?  Even ones we're
sure of?  Should this not be decided between parents and doctors?




Is there a hormone you can supply, or an organ you can transplant to 

provide morals and a conscience for those who were born without? <<<


COMMENT:

I don't know. If there was, would you need a dose?  You're the one with
the ideas about eugenics and making decisions about who should
reproduce, and who shouldn't because MAYBE they aren't genetically
sound, which sound shockingly fascist. But fascism and socialism are
not that far apart, are they?  They both treat people as children.
Neither one really believes in free individual choice. Sorry, but I
think my way is far more ethical.

You wouldn't know what ethics were if you tripped over them. You don't know much about the definition of eugenics either. 

SBH

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: of plague dogs and cryonics
    ... and blinded studies show it doesn't affect stress incontinence one way ... No effect of HRT on health-related quality of life in postmenopausal ... Previous clinical studies suggest hormone replacement therapy ... the absolute risk is small. ...
    (sci.med)
  • Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) increases seizure risk in women with epilepsy
    ... "Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) increases seizure ... problems including the increased risk of stroke, heart disease, breast ... which is the World Health Organization's cancer research ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: of plague dogs and cryonics
    ... If HRT was given for incontinence it's going to be ... "And the risk increases with length of treatment, so women taking estrogen for five years have a five-fold increase in risk while women taking it for a year double the risk," said Jody Steinauer, MD, a research fellow at the University of California in San Francisco. ... The women were randomized in a 1:1 manner to either 0.625 mg of conjugated estrogens plus 2.5 mg of medroxyprogesterone acetate daily or to placebo. ...
    (sci.med)
  • Re: Off-Topic: Kennedy has a malignant tumor!
    ... it's like any other cancer; ... HRT is still recommended, but because of media hype over *old* HRT, ... There was a small, but definite, increase of risk assoc. ... picture before prescribing any drug or hormone. ...
    (alt.autos.toyota)
  • Re: Estrogen alone no increase in breast cancer
    ... Before jumping on the estrogen bandwagon, however, they may want to consider some of the downsides of taking estrogen, such as the not inconsiderable risk of developing rebound symptoms ... "One woman in four who tries to stop hormone replacement therapy has severe rebound symptoms and most resume HRT, according to an investigator with the Women's Health Initiative." ... she said that many of the women who are unable to kick the hormone habit actually had mild symptoms before starting HRT. ...
    (alt.support.arthritis)