Re: Avian Flu and "The Black Death" of the Middle Ages


"Lucky" <LuckyHoodoo@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

> I used to think the same thing before I saw a doccumentary on "The Bird
> Flu" in which they had a segment on the 1918 pandemic.
There were diagnostic tests for the flu and very little by way of labs. They
called it the flu based on symptoms and they were right with present day
technology. The clinical diagnosis based on symptoms was upheld.

An
> epidemiologist interviewed clearly said that any Flu pandemic we face
> with the Bird Flu may have symptoms not indicative of the yearly flu.
> She went on to say that we knew this because the symptoms of the 1918
> pandemic included:
>
> Swelling of the Body
> Blackening of the skin
> Bleeding from the eye, ears, mouth, & nose (coughing up blood as well)
> Contortions of the Body

And yet they knew it was the flu. They did not say it was hemorrhagic fever
or the black death or typhoid or typhus epidemics of old. The people knew
back then and they know now to look for distinguishing features that may be
diagnostic for a particular infection. It was a flu that presented as the
flu and was very bad.

>
> Compare this infor to my original post where the scientist in question
> said in his opinion that the symptoms of "the Black Death" were most
> identical to Hemorrhagic Fevers.

You mean out of all the bubonic cases in which buboes predominated and
people wrote on there might have been the one plague that you mention. That
is possible.

Does he also believe that the flu of 1918 was hemorrhagic fever based on
your description? It was possible until evidence showed that the clinical
diagnosis was correct.
>
> >There's been many pandemic flu outbreaks and they don't resemble the
black
> >death. Sorry.
>
> Once again, you seem to be stuck on the symptoms of one particuliar
> pathogen. There have been Flu Pandemics where the symptoms have been
> extremely close to the ones described in "The Black Death". I have
> already informed you of the 1918 Pandemic and the symptoms associated
> with that particuliar strain.

And nobody seems to be confusing it with anything else as it was called a
flu long before diagnostic tests were employed back in 1918 or earlier
years. Influenza outbreak in 1732-33 and even 1775-6 How do they know that?

1657 Boston: Measles
1687 Boston: Measles
1690 New York: Yellow Fever
1713 Boston: Measles
1729 Boston: Measles
1732-33 Worldwide: Influenza
1738 South Carolina: Smallpox
1739-40 Boston: Measles
1747 Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania & South Carolina: Measles
1759 North America (areas inhabited by white people): Measles
1761-61 North America & West Indies: Influenza
1772 North America: Measles
1775 North America (especially hard in New England): Epidemic
(unknown)
1775-76 Worldwide: Influenza
1781-82 Worldwide: Influenza (one of worst flu epidemics)
1788 Philadelphia & New York: Measles
1793 Vermont: Influenza and a "putrid fever"
1793 Virginia: Influenza (kills 500 people in 5 counties in 4 weeks)
1793 Philadelphia: Yellow fever (one of worst)
1783 Delaware (Dover): "extremely fatal" bilious disorder
1793 Pennsylvania (Harrisburg & Middletown): many unexplained deaths
1794 Philadelphia: Yellow fever
1796-97 Philadelphia: Yellow Fever
1798 Philadelphia: Yellow Fever (one of worst)
1803 New York: Yellow Fever
1820-23 Nationwide: "fever" (starts on Schuylkill River, PA & spreads
1831-32 Nationwide: Asiatic Cholera (brought by English emigrants)
1832 New York & other major cities: Cholera
1837 Philadelphia: Typhus

http://www.bacteriamuseum.org/niches/features/diseasehistory.shtml

The people knew the difference between the plague and influenza

"Between 1550 and 1566, when Bubonic plague and Influenza were sweeping
through the country, (The population of England probably fell by at least 6%
between 1556 and 1560) 15 the average burial rate in Loughborough dropped to
37.16 As Griffin points out, this lower than anticipated figure may have
been the result of a large epidemic striking the town in the years in which
the Parish Register was not kept (1548-58, during the reign of Queen Mary),
therefore possibly reducing the population and the subsequent death rate.
However, analysis of the burial figures for 1550-53 indicates an annual
average burial rate of 27, whilst 1560-66 was 42, thus invalidating the
hypothesis."

http://www.loughborough.co.uk/plague/

The people knew the difference between the plague and influenza.

>
> >The population of the earth was almost wiped out and not ordinary typical
> >deaths.
>
> Yes and the speed of it's travel is one of the problems that
> epidemiologists have not, IMO, properly addressed. Fast traveling
> diseases, such as those in "The Black Death", are most often caused by
> Viral Pathogens and not Bacterial ones.
That would go against then the theory that it was viral as there were no
airplanes or fast travel in old europe. The infection would have died out as
the person wouldn't get very far. With vector infection and human
transmission you have both ways of transmision and a reservoir.
That's the arguement with Ebola as people infected die within a small radius
and don't get very far and so the infection dies out to the point they have
not found the reservoir but it reappears again.

I could go on and on with this
> but I feel that no matter what I write, no information will sway you
> into admitting something that even the experts in this field have told
> me, that there is still doubt as to the true pathogen responsible for
> "The Black Death".

There will always be doubt but the burden lies on those proposing
alternatives. We have flesh eating bacteria in which people can die within a
day or two without treatment and have O157 E.coli that can also kill rapidly
along strep. They don't know why.

>
> >No problem as it makes good talk at parties just as saying that HIV does
not
> >cause AIDS.
>
> At least we have samples from the infected to prove that said pathogen
> was in fact present. How many samples do we have from victims of "The
> Black Death"?

None. They usually rely on experienced observations by doctors at the time.
>
> -Jason
>


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