Re: XM-8 Rifle

From: Larry Elmore (ljelmore__at__comcast_._net.retro.com)
Date: 06/08/04 

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 03:10:53 GMT

KP wrote:
> Rupert Boleyn wrote in message ...
>
>
>>If you insist on measuring the M1 Garand's performance by a doctrine
>>that was obselete before the rifle saw battle you're measuring using a
>>measure that shows a great many weapons that were ineffectual in
>>battle to be 'good weapons'.
>
>
> If that doctrine was so obsolete why did every major warring power enter
> WWII with a full caliber service rifle? Nearly a decade after an
> intermediate power semi-auto rifle suited for true mass production (the .276
> Garand) was proven and ready?

Because of massive stocks of rifles and ammunition left over from WWI,
and very lean budgets in the inter-war years. Even the Garand had to be
redesigned to use the .30'06 rather than the originally designed smaller
caliber to use existing stocks.

> Which nation's doctrine, in place at the time of the M1's design and
> development, should have been adopted and used as a design determinant in
> place of the existing US Army doctrine?
>
> Which supporting weapons and equipment, not in service (or even on the
> drawing board in many cases) at the time of the M1's design and development
> made an intermediate cartridge assault rifle a viable infantry concept?
>
> Weapons (or any other) design and development does not take place in a
> vacuum. Nor are the designers usually clairvoyant.
>
> To claim any weapon which met or exceeded all of its design requirements and
> out-performed all of its competitors in virtually every area for all or
> nearly all of its service life is of "poor quality" because it wasn't
> designed to meet requirements not established for years later is just plain
> silly.

Which is probably why he never said that. However, take a look at the
Army's very dopey tank doctrine of the period. Tanks fight enemy
infantry, lightly armored, open-topped tank destroyers take on enemy
tanks. Decent designs were produced to fit a flawed doctrine and many,
many tank and tank destroyer crews lost their lives because of that.

> To claim or even allude the M1 was "ineffectual in battle" is a statement
> so preposterous it defies further comment.

Well, since no one said that, it doesn't need any comment.

>>To do that you have to know which object he's hiding behind - ie to
>>know where he is. Most soliders won't be able to do that beyond 300m,
>>so they need weapons that can simply throw a lot of fire downrange.
>
> Try thinking "where would I be if I were the other guy?" Then put rounds in
> there. Accurate fire directed at known or suspected enemy positions will
> always have more effect that spraying rounds downrange.

"Hmmh, I'd be behind that row of hedges over there 300m away. I can't
see just where in those 100m of hedge he might be, but I'll pick a
likely spot?" Putting a few well-aimed shots into that area just isn't
going to have the effect of a MG hosing down that area.

I don't have combat experience, but my father-in-law was a Marine
company commander in Vietnam and saw a lot of action. Fact was, in that
environment, he says that he rarely ever saw any living, non-wounded
enemy soldiers at all, except for one time sappers got close in a night
attack. The rest of the time they were a hundred or more meters away
under cover and you might pinpoint where the shooting was coming from,
but without scopes, he usually couldn't see a body to shoot at.

--Larry

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