Re: Question: Lorenz' interpretation of SR v. Einstein's

From: Harry (harald.vanlintel_at_epfl.ch)
Date: 08/11/04 

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:52:21 +0200

"Tom Roberts" <tjroberts@lucent.com> wrote in message
news:cfd8q8$bj7@netnews.proxy.lucent.com...
> Harry wrote:
> > "Tom Roberts" <tjroberts@lucent.com> wrote in message
> > news:cfavag$das@netnews.proxy.lucent.com...
> >>There _IS_ no "physical cause", there is a "geometrical cause" (speaking
> >>loosely).
> >
> > Geometry has no power. It's mathematics. Like Newton, you may *give* a
> > mathematical word a second, physical meaning. By definition, physical
> > effects have physical causes. Don't confuse apples with oranges.
>
> Geometry is a MODEL of real, actual relationships in the real world. It
> is really those underlying relationships that have the "power", not the
> model of them.
>
>
> >>The "rate" is not affected, but the total count can be (for both clocks
> >>and odometers). This is GEOMETRY, not anything "physical".
> >
> > I wonder how you define "rate" as function of total count. According to
me:
> > Average rate = <total count of this clock's seconds> / <total count of
> > standard seconds>
>
> That's fine, as long as you also stipulate that the interval measured by
> the standard clock be parallel to the interval measured by the clock
> under test. Just like if you verify a ruler against a standard ruler the
> two must be parallel.

Exactly not the case with the triangle, and neither with clocks: If the
ruler is held under an angle relative to the distance that must be measured,
the reference must be held along AC and the value of the ruler corrected
accordingly. Likewise, if a clock is not at standard temperature, potential
or speed, all the other atomic clocks on earth must not be subject to the
same non-standard conditions as the straying clock; instead they should stay
in standard conditions or correct for deviations and compare the readings to
determine if the straying clock was affected or not. Similarly, we will know
if the odometer made a detour or not.

> Along a time axis, "parallel" means comoving -- the standard clock must
> be at rest relative to the clock under test.

In that case the standard clock needs to be recalibrated in order to remain
in pace with the other standard clocks - similar to when the temperature is
changed. Or do you also claim that temperature can't affect clock rate, as
two standard clocks at the same temperature won't show a difference?

> > Perhaps your rate = <count of this clock's seconds> / <count of this
clock's
> > seconds>,
> > so that rate = always proper rate ==1?
> > Then the word "rate" would be meaningless.
>
> It's not meaningless -- just like the rulers the standard and test
> clocks must be "parallel".
>
>
> > Distance along a path is, but not distance between two points.
>
> Odometers can only measure distance along a path. The distance an
> odometer measures between two points depends on the path use between
> them. Ditto for clocks.
>
> Yes, there is a pun here on distance. The only relevant
> meaning is distance along a path (aka path length). The
> "abstract distance" between two points (meaning the minimum
> value for all possible paths) is useless here.

To the contrary, a second happens to be intended for timing a solar day (now
refined by a group of clocks), and not for counting the rate that the clock
on hand happens to have. GPS works thanks to time measurement related to one
single standard.

Harald

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