Re: Stupid Einstein question.

From: suzysewnshow (suzysewnshow_at_yahoo.com.au)
Date: 09/04/04 

Date: 4 Sep 2004 02:11:53 -0700

rbwinn3@juno.com (Robert B. Winn) wrote in message news:<a17e5e0e.0409031543.729c6369@posting.google.com>...
> suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au (suzysewnshow) wrote in message news:<e0a23188.0409020017.1e3ee9c7@posting.google.com>...
> > rbwinn3@juno.com (Robert B. Winn) wrote in message news:<a17e5e0e.0409011551.5daead80@posting.google.com>...
> > > suzysewnshow@yahoo.com.au (suzysewnshow) wrote in message news:<e0a23188.0408312338.6b0792c5@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > Round trip is the same all days. An airplane flying through a medium
> > > > > of air, with or without wind, is not the same thing as a photon.
> > > > >
> > > > Not I nor any other readers of this group want your OPINION of what
> > > > photons do if you can't solve a simple vector addition problem. Most
> > > > high school physics students and any 15 year old student pilot can
> > > > solve this for 2 axes. I set x equal to zero to save ya the trig.
> > > > A typo I made should have made your illogic even easier to find. I
> > > > expressed the wind speeds as km/s. They should have been km/hr.
> > > >
> > > > Grade schoolers sometimes need a Thursday flight and since you applied
> > > > the wrong solution, I added that and few more descriptive words to
> > > > make it easier to read.
> > > >
> > > > ----With hints, sans typos----
> > > > Mail pilot flys a daily round trip 100km N drops mail pouch and
> > > > returns 100km S.
> > > > Airspeed is always 100km/hr
> > > > On Monday there is no wind
> > > > On Tuesday wind is from N @ 10km/hr
> > > > On Wednesday wind is from S @ 10km/hr
> > > > On Thursday wind is from S @ 100km/hr
> > > > Which day is longest RT time?
> > > > --------------------------------
> > > > Mail carrier drives a daily round trip 100km N drops mail pouch and
> > > > returns 100km S.
> > > > Roadspeed is always 100km/hr
> > > > On Monday there is no wind.
> > > > On Tuesday wind is from N @ 10km/hr
> > > > On Wednesday wind is from S @ 10km/hr
> > > > On Thursday wind is from S @ 100km/hr
> > > > Which day is longest RT time?
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Extra credit
> > > > Which one is solved by simple algebra?
> > > > Which one is solved by simple logic?
> > > > Which one is an example of the effect of an ether?
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > If ya got the extra credits right then you'll see how the first
> > > > postulate dictates whether "simple algebra" is used. Personal tastes
> > > > has nothing to do with it.
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > If you come back with the same answer, I gotta be honest with you: You
> > > > are wasting your time and everybody's else time trying to use your
> > > > math skills to study relativity. You seem really good with the rules
> > > > and notation so I would guess you're one who dreaded the dreaded "word
> > > > problem". I think that is called "applied math".
> > > >
> > > > Take two of these and call Uncle Al in the morning.
> > > > Rx http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/vectors/u3l1b.html
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards,
> > > > Sue...
> > >
> > > I solved it. If you want two axis, then the wind has to be from the
> > > east or the west. All Thursday did was make a round trip impossible.
> > > The airplane will have to stay N until the wind dies down.
> > > Robert B. winn
> >
> > Take two of these and call Uncle Al in the morning.
> > Rx http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/vectors/u3l1b.html
>
> Well, I was more than half right with the answer I gave. All of the
> car problems and one airplane problem were answered by the answer I
> gave.
> Robert B. winn

Fortunatey for you, the dog ate your report card but that sounds about
right. So now you can see that for the airplane, any constant wind
will increase the round trip time. When the wind speed => air speed RT
time goes to infinity. If the air is like an ether, the aircraft is
like commutating light and the airports are like mirrors, then we can
see why a light clock slows with motion in any direction. The "ether
wind" is blowing the light off course.

Back to the example, you can now see the airplane case (ether) is
misinterpreted if "logic" is applied and you think falsly, the
headwind cancels the tailwind. Likewise the automobile case (no ether,
PoR) is misinterpreted if you apply "simple algebra" have some result
which "dilates" the period acording to wind speed.

This is the problem when you try to analyze the train gedanken in
greater depth than the writer did. For an alalyst to be fair with his
readers, the worst case, not the best case must be considered. That
gets real ugly. Ionizied air is instantly sucked out of the experiment
so the train can instantly accelerate to a significant fraction of the
speed of light and you are supposed to follow some contorted logic
about how light is propagating through the air which you just sucked
out.

Of course... the gedanken experiment can be salvaged, but in so doing
the goal should be to add clarity, not preservation of the writer's
ambiguties. When you put the four instantaneous emitters where the
writer's own statement of the principle of relativity dictates they
must be, his logical errors become apparent.

As a further test, replace the light flashes with two projectiles in
uniform motion. No ammount of clock fiddling will preserve the
principle of relativity for both frames of reference. Use of four
projectiles clearly makes the writer's fundamental point:

"If, relative to K, K' s a uniformly moving co-ordinate system devoid
of rotation, then natural phenomena run their course with respect to
K' according to exactly the same general laws as with respect to K."
--Albert Einstein

Kind regards, Sue...

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