Re: Question from a confused novice.

From: Thomas Jones (tjones1_at_qx.net)
Date: 09/21/04 

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:09:00 -0400



-- 
---
Thomas
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind."
                                --Le Marquis de Sade
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <N: dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com> wrote in
message news:J3O3d.212226$4o.97018@fed1read01...
> Dear Thomas Jones:
>
> "Thomas Jones" <tjones1@qx.net> wrote in message
> news:JcqdneBFcPvxA9LcRVn-vA@qx.net...
> > Ok,  I'm not sure if I know enough to even phrase this question properly
> > so
> > if anything in the question makes no sense let me know and I'll clarify
> > if I
> > can.
> >
> >
> > For the purposes of this question I'm starting off with a couple of
> > assumptions.
> >
> >  I.) I can accurately measure my current distance from a given star
(Lets
> > call it Alpha).
>
> How would you do this?
>
> > II.) I have at my disposal a spaceship capable of taking me to Alpha and
> > back reaching a significant percent of the speed of light.
> >
> > I board the spaceship which is at rest with repect to the Earth.  I take
> > a
> > measurement of my current distance to Alpha and then begin my
> > acceleration
> > to maximum cruising speed.  Every minute along the entire trip I will
> > measure my current distance from Alpha and record the time (On my clock
> > in
> > the ship) the measurement was taken.  I reach maximum speed relative to
> > Earth or Alpha (Whichever makes the question easier to answer) and
> > continue
> > to measure my current distance from Alpha. Whenever appropriate I
> > decelerate
> > turn around and head back by passing around Alpha and accelerate back
> > toward
> > Earth. Eventually I decelerate to arrive at earth and end up at rest
with
> > respect to Earth.
> >
> > The data I will have is total time for my trip from my own clock, a huge
> > database of measurements of distance from Alpha with timestamps and time
> > elapsed on a clock left at earth that I read the instant I stop relative
> > to
> > earth.
> >
> > Now, according to everything I've read on the twin scenarios  my
internal
> > clock readings will be less than a clock that remained on earth.
Assuming
> > relatively high accelerations to .99c  then if Alpha is 8 light years
> > from
> > earth the time elapsed on a clock left on the earth will be a little
more
> > than 16 years and the time on the clock in my ship will be less than 16
> > yearrs.  Right so far?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Assuming everything I've said so far, where in the data from my
> > mesurements
> > will I calculate an average velocity > c?
>
> You won't.
>
> >  My first measurment was at rest
> > from earth(Or very close to Earth) and showed 8 light years to Alpha and
> > my
> > last piece of data is also at Earth (Or very close) and shows 8 light
> > years
> > distance and I know I traveled there and back so I know I traveled ~16
> > light
> > years but my clock shows less than 16 years so at some point in my data
> > if I
> > take an interval of distance covered and divide by total time(Again this
> > is
> > total time from clock in my ship) I will get a value greater than c.
>
> Frame jump.  Time in one frame, distance in another.  Use two measurements
> from the same frame, and you always get v < c.
>
I made all measurements from inside my ship.  Where in my data will I
suddenly see the star at a shorter distance ahead of me than the total
distance I know Ive traveled based on my speed and time travelled?  I'm not
arguing it wont happen. I'm trying to determine where in the data it will
show up.
If my average speed over any given interval never adds up to > c then at
some point I should see an anomoly in the data that shows the star is closer
than it should be based on my speed.
> >  I am
> > in no way implying that at any given point I would be able to measure my
> > instantaneous velocity with respect to Alpha or Earth to be greater than
> > c
> > but given the fact I traveled 16 light years in less than 16 years
> > subjective time at some point my average speed for a given interval
would
> > have to be greater than c right?
>
> No.
Explain please.  I have data that is distance from star and total time
traveled by my own clock at each measurment.  Given the fact that the first
measurement will be 8 light years distance and total distance traveled will
be 16 light years and my total time is less than 16 years then if the only 2
measurements I use are the first data point and the last then I will get an
answer of average speed > c.  Im trying to determine where the anomolous
data shows up.  I'm sort of assuming that during acceleration I will see
distance to the star shrink faster than expected.  So fast I will be able to
tell the data is garbage.
>
> David A. Smith
>
>
Sorry I responded to this in 2 different posts.  My news reader screwed up
and didn't show me your entire answer the first time I read it.
---
Thomas
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind."
                                --Le Marquis de Sade

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