Re: OK, I'm Ready For the Patronizing Insults From the Resident Gurus!

From: Androcles (dummy_at_dummy.net)
Date: 10/11/04 

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 07:24:50 GMT

"Henri Wilson" <H@..> wrote in message
news:6rcjm09eds6ob9rjoolsi7bv5ui0v1i2pu@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:55:08 GMT, "Androcles" <dummy@dummy.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Henri Wilson" <H@..> wrote in message
>>news:c76jm0pcuh1k5s552q58ofnftekdhf51q3@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:23:19 GMT, "Androcles" <dummy@dummy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>
>>>>> Suppose *you* propose an experiment.
>>>>
>>>>Certainly. We have all we need.
>>>>Computer.
>>>>Laser.
>>>>ISS.
>>>>Mirror on the moon.
>>>>Telescope.
>>>>Accurate clock.
>>>>Empty space.
>>>>GPS.
>>>>
>>>>Point the laser at the moon from the ISS.
>>>>Record the time and position automatically on the computer.
>>>>Fire a pulse of light.
>>>>Observe when/where the reflection is seen.
>>>>Record the position and time on the computer. Repeat for 12 hours.
>>>>Plot a chart.
>>>>Calculate where/when the observations should occur according to
>>>>1) Aether theory. ( speed of light is medium dependent)
>>>>2) Relativity theory. (speed of light is observer dependent)
>>>>3) Emission theory. (speed of light is source dependent)
>>>>Plot charts for each.
>>>>Determine which theory best fits the data.
>>>>Done.
>>>
>>> Can't be done. No funding available from the establishment!
>>
>>I was only asked to propose the experiment. Obviously it is feasable.
>>There is money available (or was) for schoolchildren to send mustard
>>seeds into orbit to see how they grew under weightless conditions
>>and millions to be saved on particle accelerators designed by relativists,
>>but of course Roberts will argue that the same experiment should
>>be conducted from the surface of the earth, which is rotating at 1000mph
>>relative to the moon instead of the ISS moving at 17,000 mph, through
>>the thickest part of the atmosphere where it will be far more difficult
>>to observe the reflection, and all so that he can prolong relativity for
>>the
>>rest of his tenure, as will every other chicken with an axe to grind.
>>Such people are the enemies of truth in science and slugs on the cabbage
>>of life.
>
> The ideal emitter would be a geostationary one so that its position is
> precisely known. (Is the ISS in that kind of orbit? I dunno)

No, the ideal would be as close to atmosphere as possible to maximize
velocity,
and that is also the ideal for the ISS which will be carrying out geological
studies
anyway.
Geostationary orbits are slower. It takes 90 minutes or so per orbit for the
ISS
and HST, 12 hours per orbit for GPS, 24 hours for communication sats and
a whole month for the moon.

>
> Let's do the sums.
> Travel time there and back = say 2.2 secs.
> Velocity of source = about 16 kms/sec.
>
> Velocity difference on each side = 3.2 kms/sec.
> travel time difference = about 1 part in 10^5.
> So we would be looking at a difference of 22 microseconds.
>
> I can't see a problem. Can you?

In principle, no, but your figures are for a 22 yard cricket pitch and I'm
using a 100 yard football field.

    The Relativist calculation:
Distance to moon: 238,000 miles.
Value of c: 186,000 miles/sec
Time one way: 1.279570
Velocity of ISS: 17,000 mph.
Distance ISS will move in 1.2 seconds : 6 miles.
Distance to return: 12 miles more or 12 miles less.

               Return time:
Approaching Receding
(238000-12)/c = (238000+12)/c =
1.279505 1.2796344
              Total round trip:
2.559075 2.559204

Difference in time, one side of the
earth to the other: 120 microseconds.
=============================
    The Ballistic calculation:
Distance to moon: 238,000 miles.
Velocity of ISS: 17,000 mph.
Distance ISS will move in 1.2 seconds : 6 miles.

               Outbound time:
Approaching: Receding:
238000/186006 = 238000/185994 =
1.279529 seconds 1.279611 seconds
                 Return time:
(238000-12)/186006 = 238006/185994 =
1.279464 seconds 1.279643

                 Total round trip:
2.55899 seconds 2.559254
Difference in time, one side of the
earth to the other: 264 microseconds.
===========================
Difference between SR and NM:
264 - 120 = 144 microseconds.

Henri, that is six times larger than your figure,
easily measurable, and HUGE.

>
>
> This experiment is indeed perfectly simple and feasible right now. However
> there is no guarantee that it will show a positive result because of the
> remote
> possibility that a 'local EM frame of reference' exists. I know you don't
> agree
> with that and, even if such does exist I think the experiment would still
> produce a positive result ...maybe not exactly as predicted.
>

It doesn't matter whether I agree with anyone's opinion or not. What is
important here is why relativists are reluctant to see such an experiment
carried out. A scientist would be interested in the result. A relativist
wants
to voice his lousy opinions and wave his stinking Lorentz Tranforms in
the public's face, but does NOT want to risk being caught with his pants
down.
Michelson would jump at the idea if he were allive today.
It's been over 100 years since his experiment has been misused in support
of Einstein's garbage and I think it is time the people were told the truth,
whichever way it goes.
As far as opinions go, I'd be very surprised if it did not produce the
ballistic conclusion, but I'd have to accept the result and be mystified.
I can already foresee the flak that the relativists would throw up, it would
be a repeat of the aether-drag nonsense that followed MMX, but it
would either open up the aether once again or put it to bed forever.
My opinion doesn't count for ***, and neither does anyone else's.
Results matter, opinions do not.

> I sometimes suspect it has already been performed and the results hushed
> up by
> the physics Mafia, for obvious reasons.

No no... That's the conspiracy theory that Andersen would accuse you of,
and is unreasonable and paranoid. From a relativist's point of view, such an
experiment is simply unnecessary, they already know the outcome. The point
they are missing is that Michelson already knew the outcome of his
experiment, and what he knew was wrong. That is the reason experiment is
necessary.
>
> Maybe the Chinese will carry out this experiment soon. They are not all
> completely brainwashed..scientifically speaking at least.
>
Or the Russians, Indians, Japanese... and I happen to know a few Brits and
Aussies that can think for themselves, too. Nationality doesn't really
matter, though. Science is not the Olympic games with patriotic pride at
stake. That is why we have an International Space Station. You don't walk
into the USA and
live there, then let you into NASA establishments under the nose of the INS,
unless they want you, and then they make you welcome.

Androcles.