Re: Detecting Space-Time
From: Androcles (dummy_at_dummy.net)
Date: 11/16/04
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:04:18 GMT
"jahn" <susysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:2vt0n2F2p4juvU1@uni-berlin.de...
: Androcles" <dummy@dummy.net> wrote in message
: news:84amd.21591$P7.11211@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...> "jahn"
: <susysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
: news:2vrsp1F2ppks0U1@uni-berlin.de...
:
: "Androcles" <dummy@dummy.net> wrote in message
: news:E11md.17469$P7.708@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
:
: "jahn" <susysewnshow@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
: news:2vq740F2pes1kU1@uni-berlin.de...
: [snip]
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/302l/lectures/node60.html cgs
: u0 = 4Pi x 10^-7 henry per meter.
:
: Yes, but what does this have to do with spinning electrons?
: Absolutlely nothing. It is pure concidence that the poles of an
electron
: *seem* to always correspond to the poles of a solenoid wrt the
charge's
: direction of motion.
:
: What poles of an electron?
:
: The ones that exclude Wolfgang from the theatre?
:
: My Floridian girlfriend happens to be of Polish descent.
: It's not her fault.
:
: << Electron spin resonance (ESR), magnetic resonance phenomenon
involving
: the electron spin. MR imaging and MR spectroscopy rely on the
resonant
: behaviour of the atomic nucleus in an external magnetic field. A
similar
: phenomenon occurs with the electron.
: Although most electrons exist in pairs with no net spin, electron
spin
: resonance may be observed from the unpaired electrons that exist,
for
: example, in free radicals.The ESR phenomenon occurs at much higher
: frequencies than the NMR phenomenon, and therefore the technique is
: inherently more sensitive than its nuclear equivalent. In
principle, the
: methods of MR imaging can be applied to ESR, but such experiments
are
: hampered by very short relaxation times, typically in the
microsecond range.
: An alternative approach is to administer free radicals such as
nitroxides
: and, by the Overhauser effect, enhance the proton polarization in a
: proton/electron double resonance experiment. Such experiments have
been
: proposed for very low field imaging. PS The Encyclopaedia of
Medical
: Imaging Volume I
:
http://www.amershamhealth.com/medcyclopaedia/medical/volume%20I/ELECTRON%20S
: PIN%20RESONANCE%20%20ESR%20.ASP Note that free electrons in
conductors,
: accelerators CRT's etc are "unpaired"
: ------
: > : >
: > : > Yeah yeah.. and note that we orginally began with light
: > : > traversing nothing.
: > :
: > : Yes... and you are protesting because I say it behaves
: > : differently travsering nothing than in traversing something.
: >
: > Well, we know it traverses something at a fixed velocity
: > depending on the something and relative to the something.
: > I'm not disputing that. Refraction is the evidence.
: > If there is any disagreement between us it is the different speeds
: > it can traverse the nothing. You seem to be upholding all
: > the "something" evidence to support your PoV, and not
: > addressing the "nothing" evidence.
:
: Only because the vacuum evidence doesn;t exist. Even if you
: achieve a hi quality vacuum the emitter, detector and envelope
: if required is an electrostatic impurity.
:
:
: > http://www.androc1es.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/actual_data.htm
: > Surely you realize that with more than one speed in the nothing,
: > permeability and permitivity of free space become meaningless?
:
: That is like saying the coverage of the inside of a sphere depends
: on the nozzle velocity. Unless the paint can reflect back into the
: container then the coverage is 100%. EM waves don't return to the
: emitter unless reflected by matter. You may be looking at the SI
: definitions which incorporate SR. The cgs values are from the
: properties of a sphere. You'll recognize 12 pi from spherical
geometry.
:
: > :
: It is due the Hilbert Jackpot function. Millions of observations
have shown
: this relationship but it is surely random chance running afoul. ;-)
:
: It works for light years just the same as for millimeters.
:
: There is no requirement for the electrons in the conductor to spin.
:
: What happens when they stop? {rhetorical)
:
: I'll give a rhetorical reply. Would there still be years if the
Earth kept
: one face to the Sun as the Moon keeps one face to the Earth? How
about if
: it kept the same orientation with respect to the stars?
:
: That is a rectal reply. The earth will still have it's identity as
a
: planet. The electoron will shine itself away as gamma radiation.
:
: Didn't know the elector Ron had a vote.
: We know that Mr Positron and Miss Electron will elope when married,
giving
: birth to a pair of wayward gamma children inheriting DNA from both
parents,
: but I STILL don't see why you are putting spin on it before the
dance
: begins.
:
: So thick black smoke won't pour out of the ESR machines that your
local
: radiologist just aquired. Besides... ya don't want to mess with
the ghost
: of anybody named "Wolgang".
:
: Something makes light traverse nothing. I still say that is an
E-field
: alternating with a B-field, so there!
:
: It is a fine, but important point. At this level it is hard to say
an
: electron is matter or energy. Hard to say magnetism is a field, or
a
: perturbation of a field.
:
: One way to break the deadlock is to try and explain the electric
field in
: terms of of a magnetic field. I think you find it gets extremely
: complicated.
: >
: > Generator.
: > Transformer.
: > Dynamo.
: > Phase shift.
: Power factor correction capacitor
: R +j0
:
: ...don't see too much stuff like that in free space tho.
Oh, I think generators will still work on the Moon's surface.
Albedo is quite good, too.
:
: > I am not attempting to explain how or why a changing magnetic
: > field produces an electric field, anymore than I'm attempting
: > to explain why an apple falls. It does! That's observation.
: >
: > : Nature likes sphere's 'cause she only has one number to
: > : remember. Tom will confirm... that is all the RAM
: > : she has left afer Einstein's field equations are loaded. ;-)
: >
: > Nature doesn't use parabolic mirrors either, but she responds
: > to them in a predictable manner. We don't know the exact
: > mechanism by which an electron will change state and release
: > a photon, quantum theory doesn't prevent an infinite spectrum.
:
: By atomic emission. !!!
Vague. We know light is emitted.
We know matter is made of atoms.
All you've said is the equivalent of
photographs are taken by cameras!!!
:
: > Only the spectrum of a number of elements display fixed
: > frequencies. Using the Bohr model (and recall it is only a model)
: > of the atom, how far does the electron move around the nucleus
: > as the photon is released? What direction does the photon take?
:
: <-- Oo. @ .oO --> circular polarization
Vague.
:
: > If we play with spirographs we start with a circle (one centre)
: > then an elipse (two foci), so three and four foci and so on are
: > not only possible but probable. The Moon's orbit about the Sun
: > is a 13-sided circle, for example, in the same sense that a simple
: > ellipse is a 2-sided circle.
: > For a photon release, there has to be finite time of release
(recall
: > frequency) and finite movement of the electron around some
: > part of its orbit (wavelength, perhaps) and the two combined
: > produce the characteristic velocity c, maybe. After that, the
: > energy is on its own to be affected by other atoms it passes
: > in the vicinity of.
:
:
:
: >I'll assume you really mean it is insignificant in the examples
below.
: Nuclear spin is significant however.
:
: The Sun spins. Being a fluid, not all latitudes spin at the same
rate. I
: have yet to see any proof that the nucleus of the hydogen atom is
spinning,
: though. How fast does a deuterium nucleus spin, and which axis does
it spin
: on?
: Does this affect the field, producing Lagrange points now that we
have three
: bodies, Electron, Neutron and Proton?
: Does deuterium have any magnetic properties that differ from
hydrogen?
:
: <<The proton (1Hydrogen nucleus) is the most sensitive (apart from
tritium)
: nucleus and usually yields sharp signals. Even though its chemical
shift
: range is narrow, its sharp signals make proton NMR very useful.
:
: http://drx.ch.huji.ac.il/nmr/techniques/1d/row1/h.html What did your
search
: engine die of, atrophy?
I don't rely on search engines, they destroy brain cells with the dumb
ideas
of others. What did your capacity to think die of, atrophy?
: A beam in the TV tube is a current and is deflected by magnetic
attraction
: and repulsion.
:
: Lorentz force perhaps ?
:
: I don't care what names you give it. The deflection is real.
: But Lorentz force is between massive entities not the divine
guidance of
: space faries. If you leave a hole like that some philosopher will
try to
: drive a truck thru it... in reverse gear.
:
: They are your fae.
:
: Similar deflection by the charged plates of an oscilloscope cannot
be
: magnetic.
: Deflection by the magnetic yoke of a TV tube has to be.
: Yes, I know there are coils to produce the field, but I'm talking
about the
: field itself. How it gets there is irrelevant. It exists in a
vacuum.
:
: But does it exist absent a moving charge?
:
: Does an electric field exist absent a moving flux?
:
: YES!
:
: Good. So a magnetic field can exist without a moving charge too.
:
: We shouldn't exclude the possiblily 'cause how could four
generations of
: Minkowski etherians possibly be wrong? OTOH... they might be wrong
about a
: lot of things.
: Ditching SR doesn't fix Maxwell.
:
: Something makes light traverse nothing. I still say that is an
E-field
: alternating with a B-field, so there!
:
: :
: > : Sigh... whenever we study how something
: > : fundamental works, there is always something more
: > : fundamental to learn. ;-)
: >
: > Exactly. That is what I'm attempting to do.
: > We do not yet have all the answers, but do we have some wrong
: > ones.
: > Constant speed of light in all frames of reference is one of them.
:
: It is just a lame excuse to take the clock apart and see how it
: works.
:
: > Permittivity and permeability of free space is another.
: > E and B fields in phase is a third.
: > I don't have the answers either. Help me out instead of fighting
me.
:
: I'm not fighting ya. Try threading a needle with the hole L to R.
: It should produce howls of laughter as your mate see you miss
: by centimeters.
The same howls I emanate while thinking of "permeability of free
space"?
:
: ----
:
: Charge two capacitor plates with a battery.
: Measure the force between them with a fish scale.
: Remove the battery.
: What does the scale do when the battery is removed?
: Measure the current through the disconnected battery or the
disconneted
: capacitor (they should be the same)
: and compute the force using Amperes law.
: Compare your result with the scale's indication.
:
: Again...
: My fridge has magnets attached.
: No current inside the magnet, Yes there is.
: A charge in motion is a current.
:
: Something makes light traverse nothing. I still say that is an
E-field
: alternating with a B-field, so there!
:
:
: > : Oh! That's easy:
: > : While spin fairies and tick faries are pure
: > : mythology, the tote faries are not. When you
: > : see an action in one region of space affect
: > : matter in another region of space, it is the dedicated
: > : work of the tote faries. They have little tool boxes
: > : in one hand an copies of MTW and Griffiths under
: > : their arms so they can move things about according
: > : to the experimenter's expectations. They get confused
: > : sometimes tho when two people are watching. Usually
: > : they will please the observer with the fattest purse.
: >
: > LOL! Yes, you could well be right.
: >
: > : >
: > : > :
: > : > : > and it is NOT a superconductor.
: > : > : It is not a glass of chablis either.
: > : > : You're a refrigerator abuser aren't cha?
: > : >
: > : > I keep beer in it. Chardonnay, Beaujolais and Champignon
: > : > are for fungus eating visitors. The odd truffle is okay.
: > :
: > : Well, you're gonna have to be more generous with
: > : whatever it is if you want me to go along with this
: > : spin fairy notion of yours. Bribery will get you
: > : anywhere.
: >
: > A chocolate-coated crunchy tote fairy (dead of course), perhaps?
: > I'm all out of mashed strawberries and cream on frog legs
: > and I planned on the pickled onions and icecream for myself.
: >
: Yuck!
: Betcha I can measure the force without using fish, and it is more
than your
: wimpy capacitor can manage. You manage a few scraps of paper, I can
suspend
: a human being on a permanent magnet.
:
: Add up the Lorentz force of all the co-moving charges in the magnet
and
: you'll see why.
:
:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=orbital+nickel+cobalt+iron&btnG=Google+
: Search Does mass exist?
: What do we mean by "existence"?
: Whadday mean "WE" Kimosabe?
:
: http://www.planetmike.com/jokes/misc/the_lone_ranger_and_tonto.shtml
The
: electron ceases to exist AFAIK when it shines away as a gamma.
:
: So does water when you cook it. We call that change of state.
: Where does the electron's gravity go?
: B-field. Big time force.
: E-field. Not so big.
: G-field. Wimpy.
: A lumpy magnet I can carry in one hand can outpull the entire Earth,
and you
: are saying that's because of some tiny spinning electrons that can
barely
: manage to lift a scrap of paper.
:
: Electric repulsion is what keeps a Blacksmith's anvil from touching
the
: floor and you have never seen magnets get close enough to overcome
that
: force.
: http://www.almaden.ibm.com/vis/stm/gallery.html
: http://www.almaden.ibm.com/vis/stm/library.html I can put your puny
litle
: anvil on this.
: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993153 Na nah nana
nah.
: That's cheatin'. I'm tellin!
:
: [wrap crap zap!] I never made then up in the first place, you did.
: Permeability of free space and her little sister, Permittivity. A
right
: pair of fairies, they are.
:
: Removing the mass component of the electron, we then have moving
(set of)
: E-fields producing a magnetic field.
:
: Massless charges Eh? Are they sold by the dozen?
:
: Yep. 12 neutrinos + 12 photons per dozen, non-negotiable.
:
: Using conductors once again, the windings in an electric motor
should be
: spreading apart, so we use a glue to stick them together and pack
them
: tightly in the (straight) slots.
: That is my PoV that you are having so much difficulty with.
:
: Are you saying that Amperes long wire law is backward?
:
: I'm saying gold leaf electroscopes separate when you charge them
with one of
: those E-fields that exist without a magnetic field.
:
: Fair enough. So in a world where the best man gets the most votes
in the
: electronic college you think the man with a magnetic personality
should fare
: as well. Sadly Virginia... there is eeveeil in this world so
things are
: seldom equitable.
: http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ Note the force when q = 0
: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/limg801.gif From:
: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/LorentzForce.html I am still
unable
: to understand your PoV that the electron has to spin.
:
: It is part of it's mechanism to contain it's 0.511 MeV.
:
: << On the other hand, when p/q is a fraction (and, in some cases, an
odd
: integer) there is no simple "single particle" way to understand
where the
: gap comes from. We now understand that these QHE's are spectacular
: signatures of complex many-body states whose existence relies
totally on the
: Coulomb interaction between electrons. >>
: http://www.cmp.caltech.edu/~jpe/fqhe.html Again, I do not see "spin"
in your
: quotation.
: Your PoV, as I understand it, is that electron spin creates a
magnetic
: field. Now you are talking about half a million electron volts.
: What IS it you are trying to say?
: No ... Relative moviing charges experience a Lorentz force. Unless
their
: motion maintains their proximity, the force will diminish quickly.
: Wasn't it 1/ d ^3 or 1/ 4pi d^2 for a loop?
: I fergit.
:
: Me too.
:
: Note that the effect of this definition is to fix the permeability
of vacuum
: at exactly 4pi x 10-7 H · m-1.
:
:
http://www1.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/chapter2/2-1/2-1-1/ampere.html
I note
: that the property you assign to nothing is actually a property of
the field,
: not the nothing. You seem to be quite happy that nothing has
properties,
: but unable to accept that fields can exist unless caused by spinning
matter.
: If the nothing has properties of its own, why can't a field?
:
: "Nothing" only has geometrical properties. Ya care to gusess how
they know
: the value isn't really
: 3.9999999999 pi ?
:
: Lobachevsky, last I heard. Reimann's value is 2.99999999.
:
: They took a spray can inside of a sphere and counted droplets.
: ;-)
:
: Nah. that's 4pi.(r^3)/3 Why didn't put that 30 lines ^ up where we
needed
: it.
:
: http://www.mathstutor.com/Volume.html 'Twas you, I recall who
pointed out a
: sphere only has an axis if it spins.
:
: Yep.
:
: If all the magnetic fields we can observe are associated with a
moving
: charge, I see no moving charges in my fridge magnets. Why do insist
there
: are?
: Because I can put a coil of wire around them and make them fall off
by
: moving an equivalent amount of charge in the opposite direction.
:
: > : > :
:
: > : >
: > : > Ah.... so a spinning helicopter rotor is an anti-gravity
device.
: > : > Why do I have this strange idea that when your coil runs
: > : > out of energy my magnets will will jump right back on again?
: > : Superconducting coils won't run out of energy.
: > : Na nah nana nah.
: >
: > Drat. Got me... (almost).
: > It's the permanent magnetic field that makes your spin fairies
dance.
: SAY AUNTIE ! ROFL :o)
: it is no small assumtion that some unknown property of space will
substitute
: for the spinning (circulating, orbiting)
: entities when an EM wave is propagating far from any matter.
: There seems to be an intuitve rejection of Huygen principle
resulting from
: similar reasoning.
:
: <<Huygens's Principle:
: every point on a propagating wavefront serves as the source of
spherical
: secondary wavelets, such that the wavefront at some later time is
the
: envelope of these wavelets. >>
: http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae471.cfm Antenna
radiate in
: circles.
: I agree with Huyghens.
: The generated E-field, like the cork bobbing on water, is stationary
with
: respect to the source.
: I agree with Huyghens.
: The magnetic field travels radially, like the ripples on water.
: I agree with Huyghens.
: I do not agree with you that the radiation is caused by millions of
corks on
: the water spinning to make it happen.
:
: So we don't need millions of spin fairies.
:
: They are your fae, not mine.
:
: I do not believe it because you have yet to provide any evidence to
support
: it, and I'm a stickler for evidence and abhor assumption.
:
: It is you that has to provide a Lorentz force, absent a charge.
:
: Not so. See Lorentz, it's not my force.
: Burden of proof is upon the claimant.
: Hmmm I tho't it was on the one with the biggest lawyers and the most
money.
: ;-)
:
: >
: > That's cheating. Wahhh.......
: >
:
: Consider this:
: Huygens and Feynman both produce good answers but are
: logical nonsenese. Mathematically either is easier to model
: than perturbations of E lines of force because the wave model
: ensures conservation of mass and charge, on paper.
:
: Coloumb lines can reach out just like gravitational lines to
: convey a reaction force with any charged matter to establish
: a speed of light dependant on the matter density of the region.
: ... exactly the behavior we observe between sea-level and
: 30,000 km or most of the solar system actually.
:
:
: ------
: Imagine one of these things:
: http://www.magnet.okayama-u.ac.jp/magword/light/eh1.gif where the H
decays
: but the E builds in the first few wavelengths.
:
: Imagine a bright green flying elephant.
:
: Then imagine the revese process in the last few aperture-lengths.
:
: Then imagine it laying and egg << Thus, in the antenna near field
there is
: stored energy. (The complex radiation field equations have
imaginary terms
: indicating reactive power.)
: Figure 4 shows normalized power density for three different
illuminations.
:
: https://ewhdbks.mugu.navy.mil/ANTNRFLD.HTM There is oodles of stored
energy
: at the point where the rock hits the water, where the amplitude is
at its
: greatest.
:
: "Reactive" is the key word. Also called "Apparent Power".
: As you know, only near sighted mathematicians will complain if we
: "apparently" violate c, conservation of energy or charge.
:
: (-1)^(-2) sprinked over Maxwell's equations might even make them
work
: without fiddling with your watch.
:
: [Stump speech] Does this not remove some of the magic in Feynman's
sum over
: paths technique?
: Does this not eliminate the need for retarded potential and
displacement
: current?
: Does this not explain the near-field H predominance ?
:
: Answered above.
: Yep.
:
: It looks like we are proxys for a Feynman-Huygens duel.
:
: Nope. Bottom line, light propagates in nothing by an alternating B
field
: and E-field 90 degrees phase shifted, That's how it leaves the
antenna and
: *that's how it drives the next one. *
:
: Yep.
:
: In the near field or the far field?
: Ya can't have both without spin faries. (ether)
:
: > Why not?
: The near field shows one E/H ratio, the far-field shows another, but
: reversing Tx and Rx positions, doesn't swap the near space for far
space
: behavior. So if there are spin faires, they apparently favor hanging
out
: around radiators and absorbers.
: ... perhaps because spinning entities can be found there
: to help with the ambitious work load that Maxwell has
: set for them?
:
: Weirder stuff happens when there is a medium involved (i.e. air,
shape of
: antenna, and I'll leave you to nitpick the details of that.
::-)
:
: Faraday rotation is probably the best example.
: How do your vacuuoophilic spin faries know to alternate the B field
for H
: and V polarizations the same as in media...
: But leave the CW and CCW polarizations untouched?
:
: > Like I said, I don't know why the E-field is at right-angles to
the
: B-field, and probably never will.
:
: Well *IF* B fields can only exist in the presence of matter, then
: you can and do know.
ELSE... ?
Also you may have a clue why we haven't
: been able to conjure up a pair of leptons from a pair of gammas.
Sure I do.
http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~apod/apod/ap031026.html
That dust collects gammas and makes whole atoms, not just leptons.
It has to come from somewhere. We are just not yet in tune with
how Nature does it.
:
: > I do know that I can build an electric motor, though, and my
vacuum
: sucks up your spin fae better than it does dust under my bed.
:
: It's the tote faries ya don't wanna mess wid. MTW feels like
: 2430 pages if a tote fariy hits you with a copy.
:
: Sue...
:
:
: [snip]
:
:
:
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