Re: How wrong is this analogy for the curvature of Spacetime?

From: Bill Hobba (bhobba_at_rubbish.net.au)
Date: 12/05/04 

Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 01:10:08 GMT

"TomGee" <lvlus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cc2dde17.0412041051.2f810a00@posting.google.com...
> "Bill Hobba" <bhobba@rubbish.net.au> wrote in message
news:<GD6sd.57604$K7.40355@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> > "greywolf42" <mingstb@marssim-ss.com> wrote in message
> > news:cy2sd.1950$fi2.55@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
> > > Bill Hobba <bhobba@rubbish.net.au> wrote in message
> > > news:RnRrd.56757$K7.49340@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > > >
> > > > "greywolf42" <mingstb@marssim-ss.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Oxord.600$fi2.57@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
> > > > > Bill Hobba <bhobba@rubbish.net.au> wrote in message
> > > > > news:J69rd.54130$K7.29202@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "greywolf42" <mingstb@marssim-ss.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:ji5rd.16$fi2.10@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
> > > > > > > Bill Hobba <bhobba@rubbish.net.au> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:Md%qd.53806$K7.19234@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > > > > > > >
> SNIP
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GR is as much a mathematical theory as Newtonian physics or even
> > > > > > Euclidean geometry.
> > > > >
> > > > > Totally irrelevant to the point, above. As I was addressing
> > causation,
> > > > > not "mathematical theories".
> > > >
> > > > Totally irrelevant also - I was addressing the scientific method
which
> > > > does not require a theories assumptions to have a cause or to be any
> > > > more than conceptualizations.
> > >
> > > Wrong Bill. That's mathematics that only requires conceptualizations.
> > The
> > > scientific method requires causation. Ever since Bacon restated the
> > Islamic
> > > methods.
> > >
> > > > Consider simple Euclidian geometry - a theory of
> > > > immense practical application as any surveyor will attest to.
> > >
> > > It's not a theory, Bill, it's a theorem.
> >
> > Euclidian geometry a theorem? You are terribly confused between theory
and
> > theorem.
>
>
> Well, let's have a look at those two terms.
>
> theory
> 1. rules and techniques: the body of rules, ideas, principles, and
> techniques that applies to a particular subject, especially when seen
> as distinct from actual practice
> economic theories
> 2. speculation: abstract thought or contemplation
> 3. idea formed by speculation: an idea of or belief about something
> arrived at through speculation or conjecture
> She believed in the theory that you catch more flies with honey than
> with vinegar.
> 4. hypothetical circumstances: a set of circumstances or principles
> that is hypothetical
> That's the theory, but it may not work out in practice.
> 5. scientific principle to explain phenomena: a set of facts,
> propositions, or principles analyzed in their relation to one another
> and used, especially in science, to explain phenomena
>
> [Late 16th century. Via late Latin from Greek the&#333;ria
> "contemplation, theory," from the&#333;ros "spectator."]
>
> in theory under hypothetical or ideal circumstances but perhaps not in
> reality
>
> theorem
> 1. logic mathematics provable proposition or formula: a proposition
> or formula in mathematics or logic that is provable from a set of
> axioms and basic assumptions
> 2. idea accepted as true: an idea accepted or proposed as true
>
> [Mid-16th century. Via late Latin from Greek the&#333;r&#275;ma
> "speculation," from the&#333;rein "to look at," from the&#333;ros (see
> theory).]
>
> Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft
> Corporation. All rights reserved.
>

Let me get this straight are you claiming a 'scientific principle to explain
phenomena: a set of facts, propositions, or principles analyzed in their
relation to one another and used, especially in science, to explain
phenomena' is the same as a 'provable proposition or formula: a proposition
or formula in mathematics or logic that is provable from a set of axioms and
basic assumptions'. As Eric says comprehension is vital - you have shown
none. There is a difference between a set of principles and what can be
deduced form those principles. A theory is a set of principles assumed
true; a theorem is a logical deduction from those principles.

Bill

> There. Much better than tilting at windmills, no?
> TomGee 120404

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