Re: Physicists Losing Their Grip??

From: Bill Hobba (bhobba_at_rubbish.net.au)
Date: 12/25/04 

Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:12:03 GMT

"Consc" <cons_cie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1103916840.895996.312810@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Bill Hobba wrote:
>
> >
> > I studied Tai-Chi under a student of Earle Montague - a genuine Tai
> Chi and
> > Qi master. He believes there is nothing mystical about it at all -
> simply
> > some complex physiology associated with how our bodies work. I have
> seen
> > demonstrations and found nothing indicating a 'bioetheric template or
> > bioplasmic body'. Indeed I seem to recall my teacher mentioning
> Earle has a
> > prize for anyone that can demonstrate such effects. To the best of
> my
> > knowledge it has never been claimed - in fact he is well known for
> debunking
> > false claims. And yes I did a quick internet search to confirm it -
> > http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/empty_force.htm. For example I saw
> a
> > demonstration where he showed the claim of Qi masters they can bring
> Qi to
> > the surface and repel a sword is just a trick to do with the flexible
> mature
> > of the sword - once it is bent no force is applied at the tip so it
> will
> > piece nothing. However it is possible to hit people in certain ways
> and
> > places that will make them faint or pass out. A very well known one
> is to
> > hit an acupuncture point near the temple - anyone involved in martial
> arts
> > or even boxing knows about this - it works because that area controls
> blood
> > pressure (I think the technical name is the carotid sinus or
> something like
> > that - I asked my doctor about it one day and she said it is a
> particularly
> > dangerous area to muck around with) Legitimate demonstrations of Qi
> I have
> > seen are simply more sophisticated examples of this well known
> technique.
> > About the only thing I do not agree with Earle about is he claims to
> heal
> > people form a distance over the hone etc. I believe he can do what
> he
> > claims but I am sure it is simply an example of the power of
> suggestion.
> >
> > Bill
>
> Your example of qi repelling sworld is just like giving
> an example that the electron doesn't exist because it
> can't repel sword.

The claim is that Qi can repel the tip of a sword. Earle has shown that no
Qi is required to do that - simply that the sword needs to be bent. Anyone
can see such demonstrations provide zero evidence for such a claim - dubious
analogies like the above introduced to cloud rather than illuminate not
withstanding.

> Qi is as subtle or more subtle than
> the electron. Scientific. I'm thinking whether qi is
> some kind of wave function stuff that can change
> electron probability clouds that can influence object.
> About distant effect of qi..

Have you something concrete to offer other than vague analogies?

> since the wave function
> is non-local,
>

Who said the wave function is non-local? Bell showed that if we assume a
hidden variable type explanation then that must be non local - not that the
wave function is non local. It is possible that no hidden variables exist
for non locality to enter into the issue - see The Kochen-Specker theorem
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kochen-specker/ which says observable can
not be value definite and non contextual. We can choose the challenge
either or both. If we challenge both then there is nothing to be non local.

> you can access the wave function by
> mere consciousness input to it anywhere on the planet
> since you are dealing with an information field.

I strongly suspect you do not understand the foundations of QM. For a
modern interpretation that removes most if not all the issues see consistnet
quantum histories - http://quantum.phys.cmu.edu/histories.html:

'Wave function collapse (or reduction) was introduced by von Neumann [1] as
a separate mode of time evolution for a quantum system, quite distinct from
the unitary time evolution implied by Schrödinger's equation. The concept
leads to a number of conceptual difficulties, and is one of the sources of
the widespread (but incorrect) notion that there are superluminal influences
in the quantum world. From the consistent histories perspective, wave
function collapse is a mathematical procedure for calculating certain kinds
of conditional probabilities that can be calculated by alternative methods,
and thus has nothing to do with any physical process. That is, "collapse" is
something which takes place in the theorist's notebook, not in the
experimentalist's laboratory. Consequently, there is no conflict between
quantum mechanics and relativity theory.'

and

'Is quantum mechanics nonlocal? This depends on what one means by
"nonlocal." Two separated quantum systems A and B can be in an entangled
state that lacks any classical analog. However, it is better to think of
this as a nonclassical rather than as a nonlocal state, since doing
something to system A cannot have any influence on system B as long as the
two are sufficiently far apart. In particular, quantum theory gives no
support to the notion that the world is infested by mysterious long-range
influences that propagate faster thaan the speed of light. Claims to the
contrary are based upon an inconsistent or inadequate formulations of
quantum principles, typically with reference to measurements.'

> The
> following is experiment of an effect on crystal patterns
> in water when qi is projected thousands of miles away.
>
> http://www.pranichealingontario.ca/waterresearch.htm
>
> They described it as projecting it thousands of miles
> away when the fact is it can just be an input to the
> wave function domain. I'm still organizing my mind about
> this all... esp. if the wave function is related to
> qi at all. My experience with qi is too extensive
> covering over a decade with over 500 qi healers, over
> 5000 patients from every part of the planet who visited
> the headquarter of pranic healing which is just a few
> drive away from my home. I've seen things others
> normally hasn't encountered.

Then claim the million dollar prize offered by the skeptical society - Earle
has even offered in an extra $1000.00. Until then one can justifiably claim
it is all horse*** - which is exactly what I do claim it is without reading
any further.

Bill

>
> Consc
>

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