Re: Help a layman with a paradox

From: beda pietanza (beda-pietanza_at_libero.it)
Date: 02/03/05 

Date: 3 Feb 2005 01:42:14 -0800

valls@icmf.inf.cu wrote:
> beda pietanza wrote:
> > roninfromde@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > I hope someone can help me understand this by explaining it
without
> a
> > > lot of advanced math:
> > >
> > > Motion in space is relative, so if I move away from you, it is
not
> > > possible to tell if I am accelerating away or decelerating. Or if
I
> > > move towards you, it is the same as if you were 'moving' towards
> me.
> > > But I always hear that the faster something goes, the more
massive
> it
> > > becomes as it approaches the speed of light. Why wouldn't the
> thing
> > > I'm moving away from increase in mass? Or everything in the
> universe
> > > for that matter? If I think I'm moving away at 99.9999% of c, but
> I'm
> > > actually slowing down and you are moving away from me at that
> speed,
> > > who increases in mass?
> > >
> > > While we're at it, help me with the twin paradox of one twin on a
> > > spaceship leaving earth at near c, then returning. Why is only
one
> > twin
> > > older if motion is relative?
> > > I hope I explained these well, and I would appreciate your help.
> >
> > You started the post with a already biased statement: " motion in
> > space is relative"
> >
> > I suggest you to leave the question open :
> >
> > a)If we assume there is a absolute Space then motion in space is
> > absolute.
> >
> > a)If we assume there is not a absolute Space then the motion in
space
> > is relative.
> >
> > Keeping the two visions as two different ways of looking at things
> > enable you to appreciate the contributions that two different
> > perspectives, in the analyzing a problem, can give you.
> >
> > Since, even in the absolute vision, the definition of the absolute
> > values of speed, mass, energy, or whatever, needs a reference to be
> > compared : the absolute is, in the end, relative to what, with more
> or
> > less ability and precision, we decide to be the absolute Space of
> > reference.
> >
> For my surprise (taking into account other past contacts), I feel
close
> to your actual discurse (I suggest you to read my answer to the
> original post in this thread, maybe you will have a similar feeling).
> I propose you to consider a third alternative:
> c)If we assume the HIS approach to Relativity, then the motion in
space
> is both relative and absolute, relative to the absolute space of a
HIS.
> Relative because it refers to some specific HIS, absolute because
> inside the HIS it does not depend on any specific body.

I think your approach is substantially close to mine, I read your other
post in this thread, I would agree with you in almost all you have
written.

But in order not to leave out important questions I point out to you:

1) frame dragging: a local preferred frame cannot be simply associated
to the local masses because of the dragging by the local effects of
distant masses: how determine the entity of the dragging ???

2) clocks synchro, this is a important issue, we may agree on a easy
solution: the local preferred frame is Esynchro while the subordinate
frame is synchronized (absolutely) anchored to the preferred frame.

> > In the other hand, the relativistic vision is also bounded to copy
> with
> > the absolute, when instead of using as a reference a single objec,
we
> > use a large number of objects: enlarging the cluster of objects
> versus
> > which our relatives are measured, we approach to a form of absolute
> > when the cluster of objects is the totality of the objects of the
> > universe.
> >
> This sound to me very similar to my hierarchy of HISes. Running up
with
> the hierarchy, the body set can approaches the Universe. The Universe
> as a limit. But I do not state that that limit exist or not. The
limit
> may exist, I do not know. I do not consider the center of mass of the
> Universe part of my model.
> > Hope the above helps.
> >
> > As far as the twins goes, I can shortly say:
> >
> > In a relativistic vision each twin, closed in a local box-frame
> without
> > looking outside, cannot tell the rate of his own aging but can only
> > tell that the other twin is aging at a slower rate and this is
> > reciprocally true for the other twin also. (this requires a
> > conventional peculiar arrangement of the local clocks in both twins
> > frame: Esynchro) .
> > Important note: though entangled in a definite slowing rate
> reciprocity
> > the aging rate of the each twin is indefinite.
> >
> > In a absolute vision, given a (hoping correct) absolute spatial
> > reference each twin is aware of his absolute speed and of the
> absolute
> > speed of the other twin (the relative comes along). In this case
the
> > different aging rates are evident and are related to the absolute
> speed
> > of each twin (this requires a peculiar arrangement of the local
> clocks
> > in accordance of the absolute speed of each twin frame).
> > Important note : the aging of each twin is absolute and completely
> > independent of the aging of the other.
> >
> > Hoping this also helps, just remember keep the two visions: if you
> will
> > proceed correctly the two vision will converge in a unitary vision
in
> > the end.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Beda pietanza
>
> See my previous answer to the original post with my version of the
twin
> paradox using the HIS approach.
> My best desires for a fruitful future contact with you.

I am not a physicist and my math skill is limited, yet I would be
interested to go on with our discourse aimed to a reciprocal
improvement.
Feel free to address me in any manner you whish, you can use my private
email also:
beda-pietanza@libero.it
Please read my posts on a issue that is now capturing my attention and
please if you have any comment let me know : the thread is "help with
math".
Looking forwards to hear from you.

Best regards
Beda pietanza

 
> Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato (RVHG)
>
> RVHG

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