Re: GR -> Black Holes Can't Form... Take 2

From: Ken S. Tucker (dynamics_at_vianet.on.ca)
Date: 02/08/05 

Date: 7 Feb 2005 16:25:59 -0800

carlip-nospam@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:
> In sci.physics Ken S. Tucker <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
>
> > Schwarzchild,
>
> Really? Evidence, please...

See physics/9905030, Eq. (13), the discontinuity
is set to the origin.

> > Einstein,
>
> Einstein's paper on this, Ann. Math. 40 (1939) 922, is entitled
> "On a Stationary System With Spherical Symmetry Consisting of
> Many Gravitating Masses." If you think about the title, you
> should be able to see why he was asking the "wrong" question --
> that is, a question that is not relevant to the behavior of real
> black holes.
>
> Einstein looked at a *stationary* collection of particles, that
> is, a collection of particles in circular orbits whose average
> distribution was not changing in time, and asked whether you could
> put enough of them together to make a black hole. He answered,
> correctly, that you can't; this would require orbital speeds
> exceeding c. But that's not relevant to the formation of a real
> black hole. The matter inside the event horrizon cannot be
> stationary; it cannot move in circular orbits, but must necessarily
> fall inwards. Einstein's paper did not address this possibility,
> because he, like almost all of his contemporaries, thought of
> a black hole as a stationary, time-independent object, not one
> undergoing continuing collapse.

Bergmann in 1976 edition, "Intro..." pg. 204.
"Einstein's result...conglomerations of particles".

> > Weinberg,
>
> Nonsense! Weinberg certainly does not "find black holes impossible."
> You have made this up.

See Weinberg's "Grav & Cosmo" bottom of pg. 208.
"like Aesop's fables..."

> >Bergmann,
>
> In a 50-year-old book. Einstein, unfortunately, did not live long
> enough to see the confusion about black holes straightened out.
> Bergmann did. If you look at the 1968 edittion of _The Riddle of
> Gravitation_, for example, you will see that he says there is "no
doubt"
> that a sufficiently large mass will collapse and form an event
horizon.

Sorry don't have that ref. He writes in 1976,
in apparent agreement with Einstein, as I refd
above. Maybe you could email him.

> [Loinger] Yes, you finally found someone who agrees with you. This
is
> someone with eight preprints on this topic, seven unpublished and one
> that appeared in a crank journal.
>
> > and me Tucker, find BH's impossible.
>
> If you want to argue against the existence of black holes, fine. But
> don't make up support where it doesn't exist.

I didn't do that, your accusation is unfounded,
but your challenge is respected.

> If you believe that general relativity doesn't allow black holes,
here's
> a suggestion. Look up the paper gr-qc/0310122, which obtains an
exact
> solution to the Einstein field equations describing the collapse of a
> fluid to form a black hole. Go through the paper, and find something
> wrong with the math.

I did, he set Newton's Big G=1, he also
sets c=1, I doubt that holds in the
neighbourhood of a powerful g-field.

>Then publish.
> (I chose this one randomly; there are many other papers giving exact
> solutions to the field equations describing the collapse of various
kinds
> of matter and radiation. By all means, try to find a flaw...)
> Steve Carlip

It's easier to do it right.
Ken S. Tucker

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Paul Merton in China
    ... all these travelogue type shows have been done ... Who was that bloke from the 60's and 70's who did amusing ... Well he was always going to do the funny foreign food thing. ... Jeff/Alan/Martin know of any European programmes made here? ...
    (uk.media.tv.misc)
  • Re: Force of Gravity of a 100-solar Mass Lump of Gold
    ... > This gives the gold a radius of about 1.3 billion meters. ... > collapse into a black hole. ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Chez Watt ballot March 5, 2009
    ... In the "politics and modern physics make strange bedfellows" ... into that argument it would collapse into a black hole which would ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Quantum Gravity 420.5: The function h: Effect --> Cause switches from Gravity to Repulsion a
    ... Does correspond to real generalized Information/Knowledge in human ... for Black Hole B or its Gravitation B as an Effect, ... apex and boundary of the Black Hole regarded as a Cone in spacetime ... collapse into Black Holes. ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: GR -> Black Holes Cant Form... Take 2
    ... > put enough of them together to make a black hole. ... > undergoing continuing collapse. ... > (I chose this one randomly; there are many other papers giving exact ... > solutions to the field equations describing the collapse of various ...
    (sci.physics)