Re: Models. predictions, physicallity, and observations

From: AllYou! (idaman_at_conversent.net)
Date: 02/23/05 

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:12:41 -0500

"kenseto" <kenseto@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:Tx1Td.6046$Sa6.2237@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> Cosmologists explain the Big Bang (BB) and the expansion of the universe as
> that the space is expanding and not the galaxies are expanding into
> pre-existing space. They use a lump of raisin bread dough as analogy. The
> raisins are the galaxies and the dough is space. As the dough (space)
> expands it carries the raisins (galaxies) along with it. The trouble with
> this anology is as follows:
> 1. The dough is physical and yet SR denies that space is physical. Einstein
> asserted that space is "empty space".
> 2. Some phyicists said that space is "stuff" but refuse to define what is
> "stuff" and at the same time they asserted that space is not nothingness as
> asserted by SR. When these physicists are cornered they just simply said
> that space is space and that space can have properties. It can be be
> distorted. It can have curvature. It has permeability and permittivity
> properties.

These are excellent points. And they do the same with *time*. Not one of these
physicists will ever define time except to say that it's what a clock says it is. But a
clock doesn't *say* anything. A clock, any clock, is simply a set or particles which act
in unison such that the concept of a process is produced, and the concept of the
progression of that process is regarded as time. Yet, these physicists will insist that
time can't be defined as anything more than what a clock *says*, whatever that means, but
yet will ascribe physical properties to that concept.

And the same is true of space. Space is equivalent to time in that it's simply the
potential for the occurrence of matter. Just try to measure a distance without an object
to perform the measurement, AND without objects to define the boundaries of the *space*
being measured. It can't be done. And yet space and time are somehow melded together
into this fantasy that has curvature, and is said to be the cause of gravity, as well as
the reason why clocks slow and distances shorten.

And the reason the scientists cling to this dichotomy is because they've invested so much
energy into the model they've built that they simply can't afford to let it crumble.

While I do believe that there's sufficient evidence to show that clocks do, indeed, slow
(e.g., that the predictions made in SR and GR are substantially valid), I think the
explanations and causes are wildly off the mark. They've plugged a void in their model
with a fantasy and then declared it solved and moved on.

But dare yokels like me illustrate this illusion, dare I challenge conventional wisdom and
attempt to force them to follow the logic of their own position, then I'm not simply
ignored, I'm vilified for doing so.

I hereby challenge anyone in this NG to a logical debate on the issue. I especially
challenge my adversaries and worse critics here to debate the issue of the definition
and/or description and/or *existence* of space and/or time. Let's see how well they do at
sticking to the point, and how long they last before mounting a personal attack.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Models. predictions, physicallity, and observations
    ... > that the space is expanding and not the galaxies are expanding into ... > raisins are the galaxies and the dough is space. ... physicists will ever define time except to say that it's what a clock says it is. ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Models. predictions, physicallity, and observations
    ... > that the space is expanding and not the galaxies are expanding into ... > raisins are the galaxies and the dough is space. ... physicists will ever define time except to say that it's what a clock says it is. ...
    (sci.astro)
  • Re: Models. predictions, physicallity, and observations
    ... >>that the space is expanding and not the galaxies are expanding into ... >>raisins are the galaxies and the dough is space. ... > physicists will ever define time except to say that it's what a clock says it is. ... > the reason why clocks slow and distances shorten. ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Models. predictions, physicallity, and observations
    ... >>that the space is expanding and not the galaxies are expanding into ... >>raisins are the galaxies and the dough is space. ... > physicists will ever define time except to say that it's what a clock says it is. ... the theory behind that makes testable predictions which ...
    (sci.astro)
  • Re: Models. predictions, physicallity, and observations
    ... >>that the space is expanding and not the galaxies are expanding into ... >>raisins are the galaxies and the dough is space. ... > physicists will ever define time except to say that it's what a clock says it is. ... > the reason why clocks slow and distances shorten. ...
    (sci.astro)
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