Re: Hierarchical Inertial System (HIS) and GPS function.

From: Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato (valls_at_icmf.inf.cu)
Date: 02/25/05 

Date: 25 Feb 2005 13:46:09 -0800

"Bill Hobba" <bhobba@rubbish.net.au> wrote in message news:<QjtTd.174260$K7.65684@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> "Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato" <valls@icmf.inf.cu> wrote in message
> news:33d06fe2.0502240845.161bd67b@posting.google.com...
> > The GPS operates with atomic clocks that are at different velocities.
> > The all days engineering practice proves without any doubt that the
> > relative velocities among the clocks are totally useless to compute
> > the time dilations. There exist a UNIQUE inertial frame where the
> > predicted time rates matches reality, the center of mass one of the
> > bodies involved.
>
> GPS satellite behavior is fully in accord with both GR and SR which
> specifically rejects the idea of a unique inertial frame. For practical
> purposes certain inertial frames or other frames may be used in analysis -
> but such does not invalidate the POR or the principle of invariance.
>
 You have not to be afraid about the PoR in any discussion with me, I
wrote very explicitly " The two postulates of SR remain being the
basic starting point". Respect the GR, we have also no problem at all.
Even if I do not mention it in my post (the only reason is that my
topic refers only to inertial frames), I know that the GPS engineers
compute very successfully with GR part of the pre-launch atomic clocks
time rate corrections. Another part of the correction involves SR, and
it is precisely here where I am putting my attention. How is used SR
to predict the atomic clocks time dilations?
You can find all the details in the following excellent article of
Neil Ashby (University of Colorado):
http://www.livingreviews.org./Articles/lrr-2003-1/download/index.html
After a rather long consideration of different frames and their
relations (inertial and not inertial, involving both SR and GR), at
the end the inertial frame associated to the Earth center of mass
emerges as the one used. All time dilations for all moving clocks of
the system (orbiting the Earth or in its rotating surface) are
computed considering a reference clock at rest in the Earth center. Is
it an arbitrary "practical" decision or the UNIQUE choice determined
by fundamental physical reasons?
The GPS can be view as an extraordinary physical experiment. As all
the clocks maintain (almost) constant their velocities and
gravitational potentials, their time rates can be measured with any
desired precision simply waiting a sufficient long time interval. You
do not need more to put two clocks one aside the other to measure
their relative time dilations! (as in the 1971 Hafele&Keating
experiment; they used also the Earth center frame, can you guess
why?).
Now to the more important and crucial point. What show all the
measurements done in GPS function along many years of very
successfully function?
The relative time dilation between any pair of clocks does NOT depend
on its relative velocity, but on their INDIVIDUAL velocities respect a
UNIQUE clock, the one at rest in the Earth center.
How can we accept that the clock in the Earth center is only an
arbitrary practical decision, if it is the UNIQUE choice that makes
real measurements compatible with SR theory?
Suppose that we put in orbit all the GPS clocks synchronized in
Earth's surface without making any pre-launch corrections. We can make
afterward time dilation measurements for all the clocks, confirming
that the measurements correspond to the computed ones using the
Earth's center frame. How can you explain that coincidence? Nature
behavior is independent of any men made arbitrary decisions. The
Earth's center frame is a Nature choice, not an arbitrary men one!
I consider experimentally proved that the center of mass inertial
frame that correspond to a determined set of bodies is the UNIQUE one
that we can use to describe the movements of all the bodies that
belong to the system. This is the core of my HIS approach, and I will
appreciate very much any comment that you can make about it, no matter
if you will accept or not the validity of what I am saying.
As a final remark, notice that no one of the real clocks in the GPS
can be considered an inertial system, because all of them are
interacting with the Earth. The presence of the Earth influences clock
behavior, and we are using the unique inertial frame present. I say
this in order to convince you that I am not interesting in any
confrontation with SR, I want only to clear how to use it to model
real world affairs (like the GPS).
I have yet a lot to say about this (gravitation and SR, reality of
length contraction and time dilation, twin and other SR paradoxes,
etc.), but I will wait for your possible answer in order to know if
you are interested or not to continue this talking.

> Bill
>
> > I am claiming since some time ago in this group that the center of
> > mass inertial frames that correspond to determined body sets are the
> > unique valid ones to model Nature. I named them Hierarchical Inertial
> > Systems (HIS). The HIS are NOT equivalent (as the inertial frames in
> > SR), they form a hierarchy, been restricted each HIS to describe only
> > the bodies that belong to its associated (and different from others)
> > body set. The two postulates of SR remain being the basic starting
> > point.
> > With the limitations showed, SR formulas are used with complete
> > success in GPS calculations. Only the equivalence among the inertial
> > frames of SR and its unlimited capacity to describe Nature are put in
> > doubt by the experimental evidence in GPS function.
> > I put to debate the HIS approach. I can advance that all SR paradoxes
> > (so common in this group) disappear with it.
> >
> > RVHG

RVHG

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