Re: Have you ever wondered.....
From: AllYou! (idaman_at_conversent.net)
Date: 02/28/05
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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:51:35 -0500
"Kees Roos" <croos@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4221a66b$0$28989$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> "AllYou!" <idaman@conversent.net> schreef in bericht
> news:SsmdnYBzhtaZEoLfRVn-sw@conversent.net...
> >
> > "Kees Roos" <croos@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> > news:421dee80$0$28991$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> >> "AllYou!" <idaman@conversent.net> schreef in bericht
> >> news:i--dnQjGeYp164HfRVn-vg@conversent.net...
> >> >
> >> > "Kees Roos" <croos@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> >> > news:421c1951$0$28983$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> >> >> "AllYou!" <idaman@conversent.net> schreef in bericht
> >> >> news:q4qdnfYjMOGSDYbfRVn-iQ@conversent.net...
> >> >
> ;; Description of experiment by Allyou under discussion:
> ;; We have a 3D vectorspace sm,
> ;; unit vector x = unit vector y = toof, unit vector z = nim
> ;; Moving objects in sm: B1 and B2
> ;;
> ;; As the experiment begins, we propel B1 and B2 in
> ;; sm along randomly chosen, linear, non-parallel paths.
> ;; Let's stop here. Each point along the path of B1 and B2
> ;; will have a unique, three dimensional position.
> ;; There will be an x-axis value, a y-axis value and a z-axis value.
> ;; IOW, if we abruptly stop all motion in sm at any point,
> ;; we'd be able to note the values of all three coordinates
> ;; for both B1 and B2.
> ;;
> ;; If we do this often enough, on some attempts, B1 and B2 will
> ;; collide and on some they will not. On those where they do not,
> ;; there will still be a point in sm where the paths of B1 and B2
> ;; could have intersected at x and y, except that the value of z as
> ;; B1 gets to the potential intersection (think of the paths as temporary
> ;; roads) will be different than the value shown as B2 gets there.
> ;; IOW, the value of X and Y for both marbles will be the same, but the
> ;; value of z will not.
> ;;
> ;; Now, on those attempts where there is a collision, all three
> ;; coordinate values (x-axis, y-axis, and z-axis) will
> ;; be the same for both B1 and B2.
> ;;
> ;; Description of scenario agreed by Allyou and Kees Roos:
> ;; p(x) are the various pictures we might take
> ;;
> ;; p(0): B1 location: x = 0, y = 0, m = 0 (0,0,0)
> ;; B2 location: x = 0, y = 1, m = 0 (0,1,0)
> ;;
> ;; p(1): B1 location: x = 3, y = 4, m = 5 (3,4,5)
> ;; B2 location: x = 6, y = -7, m = 5 (6,-7,5)
> ;;
> ;; End of descriptions.
> ;;
> ;; Challenge by Allyou:
> ;; So now the only issue left to resolve is what to call that third axis
> ;; (i.e., time or motion), and I challenge you to debate the issue with
> ;; me.
> ;;
> ;;
> ;; Debate by Kees Roos:
> ;; -I think I have figured out what you mean when you
> ;; call the z-axis the 'motion'-axis.
> ;; I think you mean to say that when there has been an interval
> ;; of progress along the z-axis, objects have moved in space,
> ;; and that therefore the z-interval is an interval of motion.
> ;;
> ;; -Although I agree that during intervals along the z-axis
> ;; objects can move in space, I don't agree that the essence
> ;; of this progression along the z-axis is the motion of the objects.
> ;;
> ;; -When we look at our scenario, we see that in the interval
> ;; between the two states, the z-coordinates of B1 and B2 have
> ;; changed from 0 to 5.
> ;; However, during that same interval, the z-coordinate of any other
> ;; location in space has also changed from 0 to 5.
> ;; If we had placed a nonmoving object at any location in space,
> ;; its z-coordinate would also have changed in the same amount.
> ;; Indeed, all locations in space in which there was no object at all,
> ;; have also changed from z=0 to z=5.
> ;;
> ;; -The essence of the progression along the z-axis is a property
> ;; of space, which happens irrespective of whether anything
> ;; moves in it or not. I.O.W. space has the property that it
> ;; progresses along the z-axis.
> ;;
> ;; -Motion is a change of spatial coordinates.
> ;; An interval of progression of space along the z-axis is
> ;; an interval of 'something', during which motion (=change
> ;; of spatial coordinates) of objects may or may not take place.
> ;;
> ;; -In physics, this progression of space along the nonspace axis
> ;; of spacetime is called time.
> ;; End of debate by Kees Roos
> >> >
> [snip]
>
> I think I found the cause of our continuing misunderstanding.
Implicit in that statement is your reality that you're right and that I'm wrong with no
allowance for the converse. That explains a lot.
> When you specified your 3D construct I interpreted it in the
> mathematical sense, i.e. as an abstract vectorspace sm.
> In that case your wbt clock does not make any sense, because
> it is not related to sm in any way.
> That's what I tried to show to you.
>
> However, I think I now understand that your wbt clock measures
> physical universe-'motion'/'time'(we have to decide which) and
> that sm relates to the physical universe.
>
> Before I speculate on this hypothesis, is this what you mean?
I mean that the rulers are objects which produce distances which we then use as references
to measure other distances in the construct. I also mean the white marble tube are
objects that produce a motion which we then use as a reference to measure other motions in
the construct.
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