Re: Have you ever wondered.....
From: Kees Roos (croos_at_xs4all.nl)
Date: 03/29/05
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Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:51:15 +0200
"AllYou!" <idaman@conversent.net> schreef in bericht
news:xfqdndhJnLltzdTfRVn-hw@conversent.net...
>
> "Kees Roos" <croos@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> news:4248da83$0$149$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>> "AllYou!" <idaman@conversent.net> schreef in bericht
>> news:MfidnSYlTdytZtrfRVn-gA@conversent.net...
>> >
>> > "Kees Roos" <croos@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>> > news:4246df9a$0$146$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>> >> "AllYou!" <idaman@conversent.net> schreef in bericht
>> >> news:asudnS60WP5etdnfRVn-2A@conversent.net...
>> >
>> > [snip]
>> >
;; Description of experiment by Allyou under discussion:
;; We have a 3D vectorspace sm,
;; unit vector x = unit vector y = toof, unit vector z = nim
;; Moving objects in sm: B1 and B2
;;
;; As the experiment begins, we propel B1 and B2 in
;; sm along randomly chosen, linear, non-parallel paths.
;; Let's stop here. Each point along the path of B1 and B2
;; will have a unique, three dimensional position.
;; There will be an x-axis value, a y-axis value and a z-axis value.
;; IOW, if we abruptly stop all motion in sm at any point,
;; we'd be able to note the values of all three coordinates
;; for both B1 and B2.
;;
;; If we do this often enough, on some attempts, B1 and B2 will
;; collide and on some they will not. On those where they do not,
;; there will still be a point in sm where the paths of B1 and B2
;; could have intersected at x and y, except that the value of z as
;; B1 gets to the potential intersection (think of the paths as temporary
;; roads) will be different than the value shown as B2 gets there.
;; IOW, the value of X and Y for both marbles will be the same, but the
;; value of z will not.
;;
;; Now, on those attempts where there is a collision, all three
;; coordinate values (x-axis, y-axis, and z-axis) will
;; be the same for both B1 and B2.
;;
;; Description of scenario agreed by Allyou and Kees Roos:
;; p(x) are the various pictures we might take
;;
;; p(0): B1 location: x = 0, y = 0, m = 0 (0,0,0)
;; B2 location: x = 0, y = 1, m = 0 (0,1,0)
;;
;; p(1): B1 location: x = 3, y = 4, m = 5 (3,4,5)
;; B2 location: x = 6, y = -7, m = 5 (6,-7,5)
;;
;; End of descriptions.
;;
;; Challenge by Allyou:
;; So now the only issue left to resolve is what to call that third axis
;; (i.e., time or clock process), and I challenge you to debate the
;; issue with me.
;;
;; Debate by Kees Roos:
;; -In your experiment, just like the white marble in the wmt clock
;; moves along the graduated tube, B1 and B2 move along the
;; z-axis in sm.
;;
;; -The ordinate of the white marble in the wmt clock at a certain
;; state of the universe, determines the z-ordinate in sm of each
;; object inside the universe at that state.
;;
;; -I think you are mistaken when you relate the z-axis
;; of sm, to the motion of the white marble in the
;; graduated tube in wmt.
;; The white marble moves in the graduated tube and
;; at every state has a position inside it, which can be
;; read from the graduation on the tube.
;; If you want to relate what happens in the wmt clock
;; to what happens in the universe, the z-axis, on which
;; every object in the universe, at a certain state, has an
;; ordinate, relates to the tube, in which the white marble
;; coincides with a stripe on the graduation.
;;
;; -So, the z-axis does not relate to the motion of the
;; white marble in the wmt, but to the graduated tube.
;;
;; -The appliance which produces the ordinates of the
;; universe on the z-axis can be anything, and actually
;; in almost all cases will not have a graduated tube,
;; so it would be impractical to call the z-axis the
;; 'tube-axis'.
;; The z-axis in sm certainly cannot be called the 'motion'
;; axis, because it does not relate in any way to any
;; motion in any clock-appliance.
;; End of debate by Kees Roos
[snip, it all boils down to this:]
> All motion is measured by a device which produces a reference motion.
>
In that case 'motion' cannot replace 'time', because time is
measured by a clock, not by a device which produces a 'reference
motion'.
[snip]
> I defined an experiment.
> In that experiment, I established a z-axis which I defined as the plot of
> the motion of
> objects in the universe.
>
Do I understand correctly that in the above sentence the word 'motion'
denotes the 'motion' which you want to replace 'time' with, not the
spatial motion of the objects?
On the assumption that I am correct:
it means that when the interval between two states of the
universe is 5 nims, that the interval between the two
z-ordinates of those two states is 5.
Right?
On the assumption that I am right:
The interval will be the same whether we measure it
or not. If we don't we will not know that it is 5, but it is
nevertheless.
Right?
On the assumption that I am right:
If we measure the interval we have to use a device
which yields a unique value for the measured interval.
In the case of your wmt device a white marble moves
along a graduated tube. The distance over which the
white marble moved along the graduated tube between
the two states determines the interval between the
z-ordinates of the two states of the universe.
So, when we use your wmt device, the interval is
determined by a pathlength, which is a distance,
and not by the motion of the white marble, which
is a process.
Right?
[snip]
-- Regards, Kees Roos
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