Re: photons


"Dr ***" <paulpsremove@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:1113669294.28609.0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "sue jahn" <susysewnshow@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:42611f39$0$79461$14726298@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "Dr ***" <paulpsremove@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1113653999.49689.0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > "sue jahn" <susysewnshow@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:4260ef18$0$79452$14726298@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > "Dr ***" <paulpsremove@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:1113638265.7963.0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > "Sue..." <suzysewnshow@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > news:1113602289.742333.27370@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > s
> > The charges in a candle flame, have a Coulomb coupling to the charges
> > in your cornea. Since glancing at flame doesn't alter it, we can probably
> > assume safely that atomic bonding forces are adaquate to keep the
> > participants from "canceling" .
> > dr
> > Yes but a moment ago we were into positron and electrons so we are into
> > photon level interactions which are essentially E field interacts which I
> > think was were I was going at one stage :-) Mind you I suppose it may be
> > possible to limit positron/electron interaction to photon level but its a
> > bit to tricky to get our oven to do things of that order so I'm a bit
> > limited for facilities. It sometimes has troubles with chips:-) Are you
> > satisfied that photons are as near to pure E fields as we are likely to
> get
> > ?? and the ones between Galaxies with no obvious matter about might fit my
> > description of E field ??
>
> I am satisfied that photons *represent* the energy that an
> atomic oscillator gains or looses in emission or absorbion
> of a unit of electromagnetic energy. My involvement in
> this thread titled "photons" is mainly make the case that the
> statistical tool of a corpuscular model is a poor substitute
> for a good understanding of the electrodynamics involved
> in aquiring a qualitative understanding of propagation.
> dr
> I have no disagreement with that only the implication that I was supporting
> a
> statistical tool of a corpuscular model:-)
>
> > > s
> > > I don't think so. The technique is to configure the
> > > coupling structure
> > > so that one or the other component
> > > cancels out. A transformer with a Faraday shield, for example.
> > > I can't think of an example to cancel the magenetic
> > > component but allow the electric component because
> > > any free space potential is, by it's very nature, coupled.
> > > Permittivity Eh
>
> > > Jefferies has some good antenna theory. Believe me...
> > > You will just chase your tail 'till you can explain large
> > > and small Faraday shielded loops
> > > dr
> > > I thought I could. Ask me a question in no more than three words :-)
> > > s
> > > OK
> > > ___________ defines E-plane aperture . ;-)
> > >
> > > dr
> > > Angular spread of polarised radiation. May not be the conventional one
> but
> > > it is what my model tells the answer is ?:-) I could even draw you a
> > diagram
> > > :-) O! no she says, not another diagram :-) I was hoping to reply in
> less
> > > words than the question but failed without cheating. This is the cheat
> > ASPR.
> > > :-)
> > s
> > I was more calling you bluff. But the point is that an infintesimally
> small
> > solenoid
> > can produce a huge magentic field but have no legs. (1/r^3 ).
> > dr
> > Whirling round and round in small circles makes you dizzy and dont help
> your
> > ability to walk long distances :-)
> > s
> > Some E-plane aperture is necessary to if the path is to diminish at 1/r^2.
> > dr
> dr
> What do you mean by E-plane apeture.
I mean that I am a lousy speller? Aperture.

It is a confusing concept since the modes
don't transpose exactly as would Hor and Vert
apertures. Above I was just saying an antenna
that is very small can't project it's electrical
dipole moment very far.

<< That is, if the
length of horn between the flare change and the
aperture has differential phase shift between the H10 and
H/E12 modes, these modes will be in phase at the
centre of the aperture. Similarly, when ?1 - ?2 > 0,
2700 differential phase shift is required. Thus, the
decrease in flare angle in fig.4 should be followed by
2700 differential phase shift and the increase in flare
angle in fig.5 by 900. >>
<< The performance of this antenna has been
evaluated experimentally.>>
"Antenna With Two Orthogonaly Polarised Beams"
http://www.rsf.rtu.lv/Latvieshu%20lapa/pasn_str/konf/p_6.pdf

<< <<Antenna Aperture Defined
Antenna aperture is a concept that may need some explanation. It is a way to describe how effective an antenna is at absorbing RF
energy from the signal passing by. It is expressed such as . . "An aperture of 1 square meter." This means that the antenna will
absorb an amount of RF energy equivalent to all the energy coming through a "window" of 1 square meter area. Note that it does not
refer to the physical size of the antenna (as viewed by eye from the "front.").>>
http://m2.aol.com/bmgenginc/AntPath4.html
> dr
> > Are you saying that a plane polerized microwave tx in vacuum falls of
> faster
> > than 1/r^2 ??
> s
> Such a coupling structure could be designed. Santa's smallest elves
> might have to build it tho; . ;-)
> dr
> Yes but are you saying that if built its o/p would not fall off 1/r^2

I have yet to see any demonstration that the propagation is any different.
The coupling structures get unweildly as you approach atomic dimensions
but here are a few examples that do:
<< The ability to send terahertz waves to arbitrary locations with arbitrary time-dependent profiles enables the parallel
transmission of many signals or the transmission of complex signals to different addresses without a separate physical structure
such as an electronic wire or photonic waveguide for each address, Nelson said. Also, because the waves oscillate slowly enough to
perturb both the electrons and nuclei of atoms and molecules, the capacity to amplify and control polariton propagation could lead
to coherent control over material structure. >>
http://www.photonics.com/spectra/research/XQ/ASP/preaid.99/QX/read.htm
<<Free-space electro-optic sampling is an alternative method for the characterization of freely propagating terahertz beams with
subpicosecond temporal resolution. In contrast to resonant photoconductive dipole antennas, free-space electro-optic sampling via
the linear electro-optic effect (Pockels effect) offers a flat frequency response over an ultrawide bandwidth and the potential for
a simple cross-correlation signal of the terahertz and optical pulses. ©1995 American Institute of Physics. >>
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=APPLAB000067000024003523000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes
http://www.phy.cam.ac.uk/research/thz/source.html
> > s
> > This is why VLF transmitting antennas are usually found on large farms
> > instead
> > of inside ladies purses.
> > dr
> > I can understand why VLF[?] antenna stuff wont fit in your pocket neatly
> but I
> > fail to see at the moment how it relates directly to 1/r^2 and aperture
> size
> > except interaction with the earth's mag field and that interaction seems
> > complicated to explain at this moment.
> VLF ***transmitting*** antennas
> VLF propagates through the far reaches of the cosmos without benefit
> of any planets magnetic field.
> dr
> Yes and I seem to remember that it needs lots of power to get anywhere but
> I'm not an expert in this area so other factors might effect my generalised
> picture. Your original comments when you brought this up brought in aperture
> size to VLF and 1/r^2 and I was just asking how you related these factors
> but you clearly seem to think magnetic effects are insignificant in regard
> to VLF ?

Did I write something to suggest there are frequencies where Maxwell's
equations go out on strike ?

> > > s
> > > That is the only configuration
> > > where you can separate the E from H fields
> > > dr
> > > I want the E fields not the mag fields :-)
> > > s
> > > Then don't jiggle any charges and that's what you'll get.
> > > s
> > >
> http://www.google.com/search?h­l=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=+­site%3Aww...
> > >
> > > dr
> > > Very rusty but have worked on RFI projects many years ago and some mag
> > > shielding ones as well. but never tried to shield mag and get max RFI
> > > :-)
> > > but seems a good tail chasing game. for long haul low cost comms. To
> > > daft and impossible for anybody else to be interested in ?:-)
> > >
> > > I have done a lot of antenna field analysis. So just trust me. ( after
> > > the check for the bridge clears the bank).
> > dr
> > bounced :-) No more bridges for you.
> > s
> > > The shortest path is to study a pair of Faraday shielded loops. You can
> > > "morph" the model into every thing else. In fact they are used as
> > > laboratory standard coupling structures up to 30MHz.
> > > dr
> > > But wont the Faraday screens shunt all the E field away and all you will
> > > have left is the mag field so we are into transformer design ?
> > s
> > If magnetism is a perturbation of electric fields then clearly it isn't
> > "shunted
> > away".
> > dr
> > But I don't see it like that I see them both as modulation of the vacuum
> > state
> s
> *modulation of the vacuum state* is not a substitute for
> electrodynamic theory that has been well documented for over
> 100 years. :-( STOP IT! AARRRRRGH!
> dr
> Get your teeth out of my leg woman :-) Clearly I am touching a raw nerve
> here and don't know how to proceed without presumably getting written off as
> a kook or something. All I'm trying to do is document how and why the things
> that you apply you electrodynamics theory to actually work, the theory don't
> really address this just providing a mechanisms by which the applicable
> effects can be applied. If you don't think that fields are modulation of the
> vacuum state then fine but some of the things I write will not make sense
> unless you have another explanation ?? If you have please present it so I
> may try and understand it. The taffy one was ammusing but a little
> incomplete ?

Up to a point, we might explain televison transmission in terms of
"tickling the transmission faries". With more in depth inquiry we
will reach a point where the *transmission faries* refuse to share
the same brain space with concepts like *force orthognal to motion*
or *Lepton events of interest*
http://www-d0.fnal.gov/Run2Physics/WWW/events.htm

We have to make reference to the known body of knowledge,
not the unknown body of our ignorance. It is meaninless to
say "modulate the state of the *action at distance fairy* if you
can't quantify any states. Your square wave forms don't count
because you can't show sheets of opposite charge colocated.

> dr
> and the can intermodulate that's true but the two modulation methods
> > can be separated. Bit like pumping an AM and FM signal up the same pipe,
> > difficult to interpret in transit but after you understand the decoding it
> > all becomes clear ?
> s
> << But I don't see it like that >>
> No it isn't like that at all. If a charge at the source moves in response to
> the sum of the AM and FM signals, a charge at the destination will
> also move in response to the SUM.
> dr
> That was not my point and I dont dispute what you say.
> s
> You can't imbue the properties
> of a single charge with the same properties of a *collection* of charges.
> dr
> This below is what you said and what I replied and I was just taking issue
> with you about your statement that magnetism was just a modulation of
> Electric fields to point out that you had not explained what electric fields
> are and that saying that magnetism was a modulation of electric fields was
> in effect avoiding saying what they are. I cant understand the meaning of
> your statement 'You can't imbue the properties of a single charge with the
> same properties of a *collection* of charges.' as being meaningful because
> although that may be true in some cases I cant see how it is true in all
> cases. Qualitatively we can in some cases would be my view.

Awwwwwe you caught me. But... I CAN be more specific and
describe the *modulation* as relative motion between the charges
that make the fields... or is it
relative motion between the fields maxima which we call charges.
It depends how your chess board was manufactured. ;-)

> > s
> > If magnetism is a perturbation of electric fields then clearly it isn't
> > "shunted away".
> > dr
> > But I don't see it like that I see them both as modulation of the vacuum
> > state
> s
> You can't magically invoke all the other charges that comprise a complex
> transmission system to argue your POV.
> dr
> I did not see myself magicaly doing anything what I wrote seemed fairly
> reasonable to me.

I know you didn't see that. Why do think I pointed it out? ;-)
> > s
> > Hint: Faraday shields are configured so they will not present
> > themselves as a "shorted turn" or "eddy current".
> > dr
> > No they present a closed loop to an RF field like a large and continuous
> > antenna ? As far as I remember I've been in a faraday cage but for the
> life
> > of me at this moment I cant remember if I was trying to keep E field in or
> > out :-) I expect I will remember in a few minutes, data lag:-)
> s
> There IS much confusion. A Farady cage is not designed to permit
> magnetic paths. A Faraday shield is.
> dr
> Never used a Farady Shield as far as I remember thought it was the same as
> a small Faraday cage. Sorry.

It is a pretty common mistake in the EMI industry but folks that make
tranformers and magnetic samplers only make it one time. :-)

> s
> That is why shieled loops have
> a gap in the shield. If the Shield is physically large, current are induced
> on the shield's surface, restoring the effective E-plane component.
> dr
> That sounds like both E and M fields get out, Whats its use?
For *large* loops they do both get out. Still there is a predictibility
in pattern and E/H ratio that simple dipoles can't achive below ~30 MHz.
> s
> This is why loop antenna are classified as *large* or *small*.
> dr
> Cant remember the stuff about loop antenna but arnt they very similair to a
> folded dipole. And you fold a dipole to reduce its impedence as I remember ?
> s
> The small loops are usually assumed to couple only by magnetic induction.
> dr
> Never got into wave guides much but dint they used to have a loop for
> injection and extraction ?
Both loops and probes are used. A microwave oven is usually a probe.
(easy to match)
Directional couplers for instrumentation are usually small loops.
(predictable)


Sue...

> > s
> > The charges on the surface of the earth don't seem to shield the moons
> > gravity from the interior of the earth. Eh?
> > dr
> > No, I thought my description explained that. Its the positive or negative
> > which ever way round you want to call them , differences of potential
> > between the cores and surface's of the particals of both bodies that
> > causes the effect of gravity, probably mainly the core at this distance
> but
> > you would notice the surface if you tried to shove the moon though the
> > earth:-). ???
> s
> IMHO the motional component
> dr
> Of the gravity field which would be an electric field due to potential
> diifference ?
> s
> might be passed from atom to atom just
> as magentism distributes itself throughout a body of matter.
> Dr ***
> Sue...
>
>
>


.

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