Re: Beginning ?


"TomGee" <lvlus@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1114805767.059509.228810@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dean Elliot wrote:
> "TomGee" <lvlus@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1114712959.479217.262360@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Whoa, I did not say they are the same thing - you said that, not
me.
> > As you infer above with your question, I said they are not the same
> > thing.
>
> Whoa, I did not say that you said that they were the same thing.
>
> > A group is a number of things thought of as being or belonging
> > together, while discrete objects are:
> group
>
> group (gr?p) noun
> Abbr. gr.
>
> 1.An assemblage of persons or objects gathered or located together;
an
> aggregation: a group of dinner guests; a group of buildings near the
> road.
> 2.Two or more figures that make up a unit or design, as in sculpture.
> 3.A number of individuals or things considered together because of
> similarities: a small group of supporters across the country.
> 4.Linguistics. A category of related languages that is less inclusive
> than a family.
> 5.a. A military unit consisting of two or more battalions and a
> headquarters. b. A unit of two or more squadrons in the U.S. Air
Force,
> smaller than a wing.
> 6.A class or collection of related objects or entities, as: a. Two or
> more atoms behaving or regarded as behaving as a single chemical
unit.
> b. A column in the periodic table of the elements. c. A stratigraphic
> unit, especially a unit consisting of two or more formations
deposited
> during a single geologic era.
> 7.Mathematics. A set with an associative binary operation under which
> the set is closed, which contains an identity element and an inverse
for
> every element in the set.
>
> adjective
> Of, relating to, constituting, or being a member of a group: a group
> discussion; a group effort.
>
> verb
> grouped, grouping, groups
>
>
> verb, transitive
> To place or arrange in a group: grouped the children according to
> height.
>
> verb, intransitive
> To belong to or form a group: The soldiers began to group on the
> hillside.
>
> [French groupe, from Italian gruppo, probably of Germanic origin.]
>
> Usage Note: Group as a collective noun can be followed by a singular
or
> plural verb. It takes a singular verb when the persons or things that
> make up the group are considered collectively: The dance group is
ready
> for rehearsal. Group takes a plural verb when the persons or things
that
> constitute it are considered individually: The group were divided in
> their sympathies.
>
> Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English
Language,
> Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Electronic
> version licensed from Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products N.V., further
> reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the
> Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
>
> You initially said: "Take 3 apples". That's a group.
>
>
Yes, and I meant to say that, so as to make the distinction between a
group and the fact that there is no such thing as a single "3apples".
Are you arguing that there is such a thing? Or what?

"Take 3 apples. The apples are real, but the no. 3 is their quantity
and not part of them. There is no such thing as a 3apples."

>
> > "1. completely separate: completely separate and unconnected
> > 2. mathematics finite: used to describe elements or variables that
> are
> > distinct, unrelated, and have a finite number of values "
> > Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004
Microsoft
> > Corporation. All rights reserved.
> >
> > A single apple is distinct as one apple. Two or more apples,
however,
> > constitute not a single apple but a group of apples whenever they
are
> > considered together. Thus, we can have 3 apples as a group, but
not
> as
> > a single apple, speaking both physically and grammatically.
>
> > There is no such thing as a single "3apple" in Nature unless we
create
> > it and arbitrarily name it as such. We could, I'm sure, graft
seeds
> > such that we could grow 3-in-1 apples, but that is simply taking 3
> > discrete objects and merging their parts so as to create a single
> > object. Then there could exist a "3apple" single object, so named,
> but
> > AFAIK, it has not been done.
>
> What has that got to do with a 3apples? Especially since the
definition
> of "distinct objects" that you provide claims that the objects are
> unrelated (they are all apples).
>
>
So are you arguing that there is such a thing as a single "3apples", or
are you arguing that the 3 apples are a group? If the latter, I made
that statement and you agree with it. If the former, I disagree.
>
>
> But even if they were distinct objects,
> by "taking 3 apples" as you have done, you've created a group of 3
> apples. When you "take 3 apples", the quantity is intrinsic to the
group
> and is a part of it.
>
>
I never said it was not. In fact, I insist that is so. It is the fact
that you are considering more than one apple which makes it a group.
If you think I said that 3 apples don't make a group, you are mistaken.
>
>
> Your claim: "The apples are real, but the no. 3 is their quantity and
> not part of them. There is no such thing as a 3apples."
> By your original definition that began "take 3 apples" it can only be
> concluded that it is a group of 3 apples.
>
>
Yes, that's exactly what I said, but you apparently misunderstood what
you read.
>
>
> Therefore, the no. 3 is part of the group. It is even part of the
name
> 3apples.
>
>
No, that's patently false. You cannot support your conclusions above
with any sort of proper logic or reasonable thought. That is your own
opinion and in my opinion, you're wrong about that. The number 3 is
part of the group, as I have already said, but being part of a name
does not mean that the named object is real. Again, there is no such
thing as a "3apples", and if that is your argument, you're wrong.
>
>
> Are you are trying to say that by creating a group of 3 apples you
don't
> change the apples? That is in effect wrong. You change something
merely
> by the act of measuring it (hence the uncertainty principle).
>
>
No, sorry, the Uncertainty Principle has to do with quantum events and
not - repeat - not macro events. You cannot elevate the Principle to
the level of our everyday world just by a magical wave of your hand. I
know many have done that very same thing, but that is one reason why I
post here, because your teachers did not stop you all from making such
errors, probably because they themselves believe that to be true, but
someone has to do it.
>
>
> I ask again, what is a 3apples if not a group of 3 apples.
>
>
: have already explained it to you, but you apparently cannot
: |understand it and so you argue that 3 apples are a group, which is
what
: I said from the beginning. For whatever reason you cannot see your
: errors, it is beyond my being able to change your mind, no matter how
: reasonable are my arguments.

Fascinating non-sense. You say that you have already explained it, which
you haven't and claim that that's the reason for not explaining it. You
say that that's the reason why I argue that 3apples is a group and then
say that that's what you said from the beginning, which you didn't. You
say that it's not a group. You say that it doesn't exist. What you don't
say anywhere at any time is what a 3apples is. You can make spurious
claims all that you want, but it doesn't change the truth. It's very
simple, since you have demonstrated that you incapable of stating the
difference between a 3apples and a group of 3 apples: Tell me what you
think a 3apples is. Then even I will understand what you're trying to
say. Don't equivicate. Don't make excuses.


.

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