Re: relative motion and aging


xnipped only for brevity.

>
> During the trip (while moving w.r.t. each other) they could
> have been saying in the sloppy (but unfortunately standard)
> way: "Hey, your time 'runs slower' than mine, so you must
> be younger than I am now". This is sloppy and actually bad
> talk, for the reason that it implicitly uses the notion of
> simultaneity, which is extremely problematic when they move
> w.r.t. each other. When they get together (or stay apart
> but just stop moving w.r.t. each other), the notion of
> simultaneity makes sense again, so only *then* can their ages
> be really and meaningfully compared. The result will perfectly
> match the calculated (integrated) ages.
>
> > Or are you saying that they are the same age when re-united?
>
> They can have the same age on the reunion event, but that
> depends on how they have been moving as seen in the frame
> in which they will be eventually be reunited. If one triplet goes
> East and the other West, and both behaved exactly the same
> (but in opposite directions,) then they both end up younger
> than the stay at home triplet, but they will both have the same
> age at the reunion.
> Dirk Vdm
>
> [ps. when you quote text, can you please add blank lines
> to separate the blocks? Thanks ]

xxein: "Problematic" is an understatement because simultaneity is
determined by the theory that describes how to determine it. If the
theory is wrong, then the notion of that simultaneity is wrong.

This is simple to realize with a twist of triplets.

Let's say that you observe the triplets moving inertially, from afar.
You determine that they are all traveling on the same line. A is
moving at .5c and catching up with B (.3c). But C is going in the
opposite direction at .3c. Hell, instead of you being off-line, let
you be on the line and observing these inertial velocities from some
place between (A, B) and C. Iow A(.5c)>,B(.3c)>, |you(0c)| <C(-.3c).
Clearly, from this, you will determine that the aging (intrinsic
timerates) of B and C are identical and that A's timerate is slower
than either B or C.

Now remember that it was |you| that determined this. This is your
physical theory.

I think that I will be B. What do I measure and formulate as the
timerates of others? I certainly will use your rules and determine
that C is coming toward me at a high rate of speed so that we cannot
have the same timerate! Who, then, will age more (or less)?

While I agree that a "coming together again" gives a correct result for
the inertial observer's clock and aging, it is all skewed and slewed to
that particular clock. If there was no "coming together again" there
would be no definitive amount of aging. There would be no way (except
for a theory) to determine who would age faster. Iow, if I remove the
requirement of your returning (for a clock comparison), I also remove
the need for you to accelerate to an opposite direction with a
different speed. The Relativity and covariance of the math of the
theory is lost. It was just a forced peculiarity of the observer's
clock vs. the "out and back" clock to make that comparison in a
relative fashion that supports the observer's measurement. There was
and is no physics there. It was all a circumstantial set of
mathematical prediction for what a clock will observe (of others) with
a timerate.

H. Lorentz understood this. I understand the sublties between
Einsteinian and the Lorentzian probably better than any poster that has
ever posted here since I started posting. You do use the
transformation, don't you? Why? Was it formulated wrongly?

Lorentz gives the correct result to the triplets (as I describe above).
Einstein can't. He decided to shorten the math considerations and
declare the ether superfluous for one clock in special conditions.
Other clocks observe events also (above). Any covariance is limited to
one clock only.

Go ahead and "read" the time on a moving clock. You will have no way
of knowing if it is a coordinate time because you base everything on
the assumption that light travels at c to reach you. c for your frame
or c for the other frame? It is neither. IT IS TWLS NOT
OWLS!!!!!!!!!!!

I independently developed the logic of Lorentz before I even heard of
him. Can you say that you could develop the Einsteinian on your own?
If yes, then Einstein was not special, was he? If not, then Einstein
is not physically logical. You are simply a believer lost in the
quagmire of believer-land.

Physics is not a follower of mathematics. It is the creator of
mathematics. Mathematics did not simply appear out of an emptiness,
you know. Math is an idea of counting --- by whom? Physics doesn't
count --- it compares. Like walking at 2:00 am down a nasty street.
You either understand it or you don't. Counting is as superfluous as
the ether - unless you include the ether into your counting.

You should have much more to consider than a belief that has somehow
become bestowed upon you. Do you even HAVE an original thought?

.

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