Re: Have you ever wondered.....

"AllYou!" <idaman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schreef in bericht
news:i4udncTd6-o1rBbfRVn-tg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "Kees Roos" <croos@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:428ad07c$0$64529$e4fe514c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> "AllYou!" <idaman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schreef in bericht
>> news:KYidnavGiNXxSxTfRVn-gg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> > "Kees Roos" <croos@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> > news:4288e443$0$82278$e4fe514c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> "AllYou!" <idaman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schreef in bericht
>> >> news:-amdnQiS25V9CRXfRVn-1A@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >
>> >
>> > [snip]
>> >
[I moved up this paragraph, because all of our present debate
is affected by this misunderstanding]
>> >> The ordering is a phenomenon which comes to our attention
>> >> through the comparison.
>> >
>> > The order, or the ordering? This is where your use of words gets you
>> > into
>> > serious
>> > confusion.
>> >
>> Definitions:
>> Ordering is the phenomenon that the states are ordered(adverb, not verb).
>> Order is the actual configuration of the states.
>
> That first sentence has no meaning. Please try again. Ordering is the
> intellectual
> process of determining the order of events, and the order of events is the
> sequence in
> which they occurred.
>
You'll have to read up on set theory and 'ordered sets' in particular.
Or go to:
http://dictionary.reference.com/
and look up 'ordering', which gives a number of meanings,
all of 'ordering' as a noun, none as a verb, the first of which reads:
"1: A condition of logical or comprehensible arrangement among the separate
elements of a group."

That is the 'ordering' I refer to.


>> >> >> When we look at the universe and study successive
>> >> >> states, we conclude that these states are ordered.
>> >> >> It's not something we conjecture out of the blue, it
>> >> >> is how the universe shows itself.
>> >> >> How can you say that that this ordering is not physical?
>> >> >> It is how the universe works.
>> >> >
>> >> The comparison of two states is an intellectual process.
>> >> If we notice that the frames of a film are ordered on the
>> >> tape, that is not because we order anything, it is a property
>> >> of the film.
>> >> If we notice that in a telphone directory the names are
>> >> ordered, that's not because we order anything, it is
>> >> a property of the directory.
>> >> The same goes for the states of the universe as they
>> >> come to us: the states are ordered, we detect the ordering.
>> >
>> > The events of history occurr, and they occurr in a specific order.
>> > Their
>> > occurrance, and
>> > the order of their occurance would happen whether or not they were
>> > observed. and that's
>> > exactly why the term *observe* includes both the awareness of the
>> > event,
>> > and the awareness
>> > of the order in which they occurred. The fact that we require an
>> > intellect to assist us
>> > in recognizing the order does nothing to diminish the physicallity of
>> > the
>> > event or the
>> > order in which they occurr.
>> >
>> So, the order in which the states of the universe occur
>> is 'physical', as you call it?
>
> The order in which they occurred is physical, and the intellectual process
> of determining
> that order is not.
>
Now consider the set of all the states of the universe, as they have
already occurred and as they will occur. These states are ordered in
the set, i.e. they all have their own place relative to all other states
in the set. This ordering, i.e. the order in which they occur is physical,
as you state.
The states are physical, the order in which they occur is physical.
Would you say such a set is physical?

>>
>> > Now the issue become the notion of time. Time is isolated simply to
>> > the
>> > process of
>> > ordering.
>> >
>> It isn't. It *is* the ordering of states(ordering as noun, not as verb).
>> It is not the 'process of ordering'. There is no such process.
>
> That explains your confusion. There is the order in which events occur,
> and then there is
> the intellectual process of determining the order in which they occurred.
> You've said the
> same thing over many recent posts. You said that motion could not be seen
> because only
> one state could be seen, and all previous states had to be recorded and
> recalled. That's
> what I'm saying as well, except that I'm saying that there are two
> distinct processes
> involved. The first is the physical process of *seeing*, and the second
> is the
> intellectual processes of recording and recalling and comparing. The
> former is physical,
> and the latter is intellectual, and the latter is that from which time is
> inferred.
>
And also that from which motion is inferred:
The physical process of *seeing* states is followed by the
intellectual process of recording and recalling and comparing
locations, from which motion is inferred.

[the rest of our present debate just elaborates on this]
--
Regards, Kees Roos





.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Have you ever wondered.....
    ... intellectual process of determining the order of events, and the order of events is the sequence in which they occurred. ... >>>> is how the universe shows itself. ... > The events of history occurr, and they occurr in a specific order. ... > in recognizing the order does nothing to diminish the physicallity of> the ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Have you ever wondered.....
    ... >>> is how the universe shows itself. ... >> ordering those states is not simply an intellectual process. ... The events of history occurr, and they occurr in a specific order. ... in recognizing the order does nothing to diminish the physicallity of the event or the ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Have you ever wondered.....
    ... >> The events of history occurr, and they occurr in a specific order. ... >> in recognizing the order does nothing to diminish the physicallity of the ... The order in which they occurred is physical, and the intellectual process of determining ... phenomenon which is being measured. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Have you ever wondered.....
    ... >> The comparison of two states is an intellectual process. ... > The events of history occurr, and they occurr in a specific order. ... It *is* the ordering of states(ordering as noun, not as verb). ... > observation of motion includes the ordering of events. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)