Re: Have you ever wondered.....

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> "Kees Roos" <croos@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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>>> "AllYou!" <idaman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schreef in bericht
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>>>> "Kees Roos" <croos@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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>>>>>>>> "Kees Roos" <croos@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>>> Now that we have eliminated inference as the deciding process
>>>>>>>>> between 'physicalness'and 'unphysicalness', the next question is:
>>>>>>>>> what is the deciding criterium?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Observation.
>>>>>>>>
** Our topic is 'observation'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's first get clear what the concept entails:
>>>>>>> Observation is a process of intellectually processing sensory input
>>>>>>> which results in us becoming aware of a natural phenomenon.
>>>>>>>
[snip]
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now consider the phenomenon that the universe evolves
>>>>> in ordered states.
>>>>> Sensory input is states again.
>>>>> Intellectual process makes us aware of the phenomenon
>>>>> that the states as they occur are ordered.
>>>>> We call that ordering 'time'.
>>>>> We have observed time, which makes it physical.
>>>>> Correct also?
>>>>
>>>> Not even close. The intellectual process *makes us aware* that the
>>>> phenomenon in of changing states, and that those states are ordered,
>>>> however, the fact of the ordered states is the phenomenon itself, and
>>>> the notion of time is an intellectual concept applied to the
>>>> phenomenon.
>>>>
>> I have been thinking about what you say here, and I think my initial
>> answer does not address the issue.
>> When you say that the notion 'time' is an intellectual concept applied
>> to the phenomenon of ordered states of the universe, do you mean
>> that all you see is states and nowhere do you see a 'time', i.o.w.
>> nowhere in the universe is there a thing which you can point to and
>> say: 'look, there is a time'?
>
> Time is not observable.
>
>>
>> On the assumption that I am right and that is what you mean,
>> I would say that 'time' is not an object in the universe, but
>> that does not make it less real. Time is a property of the universe
>> itself.
>
> Then it should be observable, like any other property.
>
[snip]

Phenomenon: states of the universe are ordered, i.e.
they 'pile up on a stack' in which each of them has its
own location relative to all the others, and each new
state comes on top of all the others.
The stack consists of the history of the universe, and
extrapolates into the future.

Sensory input: states, which are ordered, i.e.
they 'pile up on a stack' in which each of them has its
own location relative to all the others, and each new
state comes on top of all the others.
The stack consists of the memory of the sensed states.

Intellectual process: We consider the remembered states
and become aware that they are ordered, i.e.
they have 'piled up on a stack' in which each of them has
its own location relative to all the others, and each new
state came on top of all the others.
We extrapolate from that awareness that before we
started sampling the states the same thing has happened
'all the time', and that it is an ongoing phenomenon, i.e.
we have sampled a section of an existing and expanding
stack. (we have looked at a fraction of the history of the
ubiverse)

The concatenation of the sensory input of states and
intellectual process resulting in the awareness that
there is this 'extending stack of states of the universe'
amounts to an observation according to your own definition.
So, we observe time.

[snip]
--
Regards, Kees Roos



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