Re: Will Somebody PleaseTell bz What an Inertial Frame is.


"bz" <bz+sp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:Xns9687EDE449726WQAHBGMXSZHVspammote@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Arthur Dent" <jp006t2227@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
> news:1120334272.118942.112390@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
>
>>
>>
>> bz wrote:
>>> "Arthur Dent" <jp006t2227@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
>>> news:1120291898.963571.290740@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
>>>
>>> >> > Just speed up the light, then :-)
>>> >>
>>> >> kinda hard to do, at will, otherwise there would be no point in
>>> >> our
>>> >> discussion.
>>> >
>>> > Actually it's as simple as bat and ball, at least in principle,
>>> > but
>>> > trying to do it in air is like playing tennis underwater.
>>>
>>> I am afraid that would be 'kinda a drag'. Photons don't seem to slow
>>> down while passing through vacuum [and not much through air].
>>
>> Enough air and even brilliant sunshine turns red.
>
> Because blue light is scattered by our atmosphere. [thats why the sky
> is
> blue]
It isn't scattered in space, that's why the sky is black, why there is
no aether, why there is no "one atom per cc" as Sue thinks because it
said so on a web page. :-)
As I said, BaT isn't a friction model, whereas your blue sky is.




>
>>> Once they do slow down for the media, they don't continue to lose
>>> velocity, which they should do if BaT were valid.
>>
>> Whether you were right or wrong, it would have nothing to do with the
>> speed of light in nothing.
>> The ballistic theory of light isn't a friction theory.
>
> The proposal was that light is slowed by passing near matter.

No it wasn't.

> BaT light has no minimum velocity.
> It would continue to slow until it stopped moving.

Light leaving water and entering air is sped up, not slowed down.


>
>>> They certainly don't stop. Tennis balls do.
>>
>> The medium governs the speed of light both in the medium and relative
>> to the medium. Move the medium at v and the speed of light is added
>> to
>> the speed of the medium, v, and becomes c/n+v.
>> You've got three choices.
>> 1) The speed of light is source dependent.
>> 2) the speed of light is observer dependent.
>> 3) the speed of light is medium dependent.
>
> 1) the speed of light is independent of source.
> 2) the speed of light is independent of observer.
> 3) the speed of light is medium dependent.
> 4) there is no medium in a vacuum.

Your 4) is a superfluous statement, not a choice, and vacuum is by
definition free of any matter whatsoever and isn't an option that
excludes the other 3.

3) takes care of MMX.

That leaves us with your 1) and 2) .
They are not mutually exclusive. Both could be valid.
That makes it difficult to reach any kind of conclusion.

My way of thinking:
1) The way to our destination is to turn left at the next T-junction.
2) The way to our destination is to turn right at the next T-junction.

Your way of thinking:
1) The way to our destination is to not turn left at the next
T-junction.
2) The way to our destination could be to turn left at the next
T-junction.
3) The way to our destination is to not buy milk at the gas station on
the corner.

Try to formulate options that are relevant and will lead to a
conclusion.
You've got THREE choices.
1) The speed of light is source dependent.
2) the speed of light is observer dependent.
3) the speed of light is medium dependent.


>> In MMX all three apply since source, medium and observer are all
>> relatively at rest.
>
> If there were an aether, the medium would not have been at rest.
>
>> Take away the medium and you are down to two choices, the subjective
>> speed of is light is c for you personally and speed of light is
>> objectively source dependent.
>
> SR/GR/EEP says "it ain't 'subjective'" and it is independent of
> source.

Thieves usually plead not guilty when charged.
I say that the speed of light being c WRT the observer is purely
subjective, by definition of subjective.

>> We see red/blue shift, and there is no
>> aether.
>
> Agreed.
Good. So the amount of shift is dependent on the speed of the source,
there is no aether so we can't use Doppler's f' = f.c/(c-v) (which WOULD
hold for aether), that leaves Doppler's f' = f.(c+v)/c and the speed of
light is source dependent. Or maybe you think Doppler was wrong.


>
>> The subjective speed of light c for the observer would mean the
>> irrationality of time dilation. I send a beam of light from A to B, a
>> distance of 1 light-year, reflect it back from B to A for a total
>> time
>> of 2 years, and in the meantime I buzz around in any direction, any
>> speed and return once again to A. If my clock slowed as I did so I'd
>> be
>> forced to conclude the speed of light from A to B and back again was
>> greater than c, which is a contradiction and irrational.
>
> The only thing irrational is to think that you can do anything during
> the
> experiment without changing its results.
>
> If you leave your clock behind, when you come back and check the
> speed, it
> will be correct. You can't take the clock with you

Why can't I take a clock with me? I take my wrist watch with me most of
the time, and I've yet to see a RATIONAL reason for it changing as a
function
of my velocity.


>> Performing an experiment with light IN THE VICINITY of matter is
>> essentially the same as light in a medium, only the distance from the
>> photon to the atom has changed.
>
> All light is in the vicinity of matter. Especially if we perform an
> experiment of any kind.

It leaves the vicinity of matter ( a star) and travels a heck of a long
way though space near nothing at all. That's very different to going
down a
waveguide or accelerator tube.
AD.




.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Will Somebody PleaseTell bz What an Inertial Frame is.
    ... >>> The medium governs the speed of light both in the medium and relative ... >>> 2) the speed of light is observer dependent. ... >> 2) the speed of light is independent of observer. ... >> 4) there is no medium in a vacuum. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Will Somebody PleaseTell bz What an Inertial Frame is.
    ... >> The medium governs the speed of light both in the medium and relative ... >> 2) the speed of light is observer dependent. ... > 2) the speed of light is independent of observer. ... > 4) there is no medium in a vacuum. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Will Somebody PleaseTell bz What an Inertial Frame is.
    ... which they should do if BaT were valid. ... > The medium governs the speed of light both in the medium and relative ... > 2) the speed of light is observer dependent. ... the speed of light is independent of observer. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Will Somebody PleaseTell bz What an Inertial Frame is.
    ... >>> kinda hard to do, at will, otherwise there would be no point in our ... The medium governs the speed of light both in the medium and relative ... The speed of light is source dependent. ... In MMX all three apply since source, medium and observer are all ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Will Somebody PleaseTell bz What an Inertial Frame is.
    ... >> It isn't scattered in space, that's why the sky is black ... BaT is purely and simply the principle of relativity, ... The speed of light in a medium is c/n. ... >>> 3) the speed of light is medium dependent. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)