Re: Why don't protons attract due to gluons and only with neutrons?


PD wrote:
guskz@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
PD wrote:
guskz@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
1. Why aren't protons attracted to each other due to gluons?

They are.
They also repel each other electrostatically.
In balance, two protons will not be held together sufficiently without
additional gluon-contributors such as neutrons.


2. Why are protons ONLY attracted to neutrons due to gluons?

They aren't. They attract neutrons AND protons due to gluons.


3. Are neutrons attracted to other neutrons, if so why?

Yes, they are. However, neutrons can also decay into a proton, an
electron, and a neutrino, if that is energetically favorable. A proton
and a neutron happen to be a more energetically favorable bound state
than a two-neutron bound state.

You may want to look up "valley of stability".
On a plot of A vs Z, you'll see that too much Z for the same A is
unstable -- this is explained above by electrostatic proton-proton
repulsion.
So your real question is, why are too many neutrons also bad? Why is
too much A for the same Z also unstable?

PD

What's an A and a Z?

A = atomic mass = number of protons + neutrons
Z = atomic number = number of protons
A-Z = number of neutrons

Isn't an atomic mass = the mass of p + n instead of number of p & n
....thus A-Z would not = number of neutrons?

That depends on the units. A common unit of mass is the "amu" (atomic
mass unit), for which the mass of the proton and the mass of the
neutron are both approximately 1 amu. Look at a periodic table, where
atomic masses are listed in amu.



Notice the chart of the valley of stability will likely be a plot of A
vs Z or (A-Z) vs Z.


Ok but it doesn't give the LOGIC of why it gives best stabilty?

Right, and for that you'll need to look up a *description* of the
valley of instability and not just the table itself. I gave you the
reason why too much Z leads to instability -- electrostatic (Coulomb)
repulsion. Now if you do some homework and find where that Coulomb
repulsion is discussed, you'll likely find the explanation for why too
much A-Z also leads to instability....


google search: Web Results 1 - 1 of 1 for "valley of instability"
neutrons.

not a popular term?

Typo, sorry. "valley of stability".


Ok thanks,

They don't seem to gvie any specific answer, just that it becomes
unstable leading to the drip line where to many neutrons would drip
out...?

You may have to follow some of the references in those links to get a
fuller answer.


Perhaps also a reason why atoms(elements) are limited in size, the
larger the nucleus the more unstable the atom and more likely to split
(uranium, plutonium, nuclear fission).


Yes, indeed.

Ok thanks, but even after all this information I believe the atom model
in terms of the nucleus is still unchanged?

And therefore all neutrons are TOGETHER at the core and all protons are
at the outside....

No. Protons and neutrons are mixed in the nucleus, with *electrons*
about 10,000 times further away on the outside of the atom.


That's not the nuclear model I know of? Is there a newer one?

What I described was an atom.


(The model I know of has the protons (neighborhood) circulating around
the neutron core?)

I know of no model that describes the nucleus this way. Where did you
read it?

I'm loosing my mind. I can't find it on the web.

Look here, the model I grew up on in high school has NOT TWO BUT THREE
DISTINCT REGIONS:

#1 At the very core is the neutrons is a very dense region of the
nucleus

#2 Just outside there's the protons circling the neutrons but still
within a very dense region and in the nucleus

You either remember incorrectly or you were taught wrong.


#3 then there's the electron shells

Heck I even remember VENUS FLYTRAP on WKRP IN CINCINATY drawing this
very picture to a kid in order to get him to return to school.

--------------------

As well and just as logically the coulomb repulsion between the protons
should give them at the very least a larger distance from each other
where as the neutrons don't have this disadvantage.

You might think so, but this isn't what happens.




therefore I think that due to the proximity
rule...all neutrons should be gluon interacting with themselves and all
protons should be gluon interaction with themselves despite their
coulomb repulsion since they are still closer to they're own type then
the other type and that the gluon force is strongest at shorter
distances between neuclons, correct???

Actually, the nuclear binding force is not monotonic. It doesn't get
uniformly stronger at shorter distances, nor does it get uniformly
stronger at larger distances. It gets weaker at both short and long
distances (for different reasons), peaking at about a fermi or so.


That's very strange...I've never heard of any other type of force that
can get weaker at a closer distance?

Look up QCD and "asymptotic freedom".


Pressed on time, but from what I've read at Wikipedia, I'm not sure
what they mean by it's due to the antiscreening effect.

QUOTE:"Roughly speaking, each gluon carries both a color charge and an
anti-color charge. The net effect of polarization of virtual gluons in
the vacuum is not to screen the field, but to augment it and affect its
color. This is sometimes called antiscreening. Getting closer to a
quark diminishes the antiscreening effect of the surrounding virtual
gluons"

----------------------------------------
Perhaps it's because they must be within a specific wavelength of each
other (amplitude peaks) for the effect to be at it's full
*******POTENTIAL*************....(and as well may be indirectly related
to the magic number between nucleons and the WELL
*******POTENTIAL******?)?


Could this "perhaps" be the equivalent of what they said above which
is:

"not to screen the field (the wave field between them...although I
don't know what they mean by screening it ...to semi-hide, shade,
shadow it??) but to augment it and affect (properly tune/adjust) its
color: A proper wavelength distance , I THINK would do this since
higher amplitude peeks bring higher color intensities which modify the
overall color exchange between the nucleons???

At this point, guessing isn't going to get very far. To understand how
a force can get stronger at further distance, you'll need to study in
detail. That will take work.


Ok thanks

When I find time I'll look up more stuff on what they call the
antiscreening effect of "virtual" gluons.




PD

.

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