Re: A CHALLENGE


FrediFizzx wrote:
<vergon@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1159385119.748970.299590@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

PD wrote:
vergon@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
PD wrote:
vergon@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
I hereby issue a challenge to all you gents who keep telling
me
how dumb I am --- let's see you solve this problem (as I
have).

First, we use as the mass of the photon, Einstein's version:
m = L/c^2
(If you insist the photon has no mass, you are hereby
excused --- go
somewhere else.)

Einstein did not say that the photon has mass. He said that if a
massive body gives off light energy in the amount L, then the
mass of
the body decreases by an amount L/c^2.

You are assuming that mass is conserved and that the mass has to
go
someplace and that therefore it must go into the photon.

VERGON

Exactly so. If it doesn't go there, where does it go? Or do you
believe
mass can be destroyed?

Experiment says that mass does not "live" in the parts of the
system.
And so when you insist that mass that has disappeared from one part
of
the system has to live in the other part of the system, you're
making a
mistake.


This is simply an incorrect assumption. Einstein didn't make it,
either. Mass is not an additive property of a system. That is,
the mass
of a system is not the sum of the masses of its parts. It simply
isn't,
experimentally, and no insisting that it damn well *should* be
will
make it so.

VERGON

Again your wrong. In so called experiments where mass seems to be
missing, you'll find that the mass balances if you take into
account
that radiation has mass AND BINDING FORCES have mass.

Are you aware that Einstein declared mass and energy are conserved
as
one law?

Good try, but no cigar :-)

Show me a process or experiment where mass is missing.

Sure. J/psi (mass 3100 MeV/c^2) decays into two muons and only two
muons. The mass of each muon is 105.6 MeV/c^2, measured. The J/psi
is
made of two charmed quarks, not two muons. Seems to me you've got in
excess of 2800 MeV/c^2 worth of mass that *cannot* be placed
anywhere
in the final state system.

PD


VERGON

Re the missing mass. I tried to find a detailed description
of the reaction but could not find one. Instead, there were
always reports that were descriptive of the results.

However, there was enough information dropped to show that
" missing mass" was not missing.

And as I said, once you realize radiation has mass, if you trace
it and other particles you will see that mass is conserved.

Below are extracts from said reports.
Below the extract I have quoted the essential sentence.
Below that, in caps, I give my remarks.


*************************************************************
At the Fermilab Tevatron Collider, the CDF experiment measured
the production of J/psi mesons using the magnetized toroids of the
Forward Muon system. Forward means here that the particles fly
at angles close to the beam line. We measured the momenta of
muons, and from these reconstructed what the momentum of the
parent J/psi must have been. The magnetized iron toroids served
both to block most non-muons and to allow us to measure the
momentum of the muons by measuring the deflection of the particles
that went through the toroids. Since this did not use the central
solenoid, it provides an independent measurement, and in a region
the central tracker did not cover.

"...The magnetized iron toroids served
both to block most non-muons and to allow us to measure the ..."

SO THERE ARE NON-MUONS IN THE REACTION. MISSING MASS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Using the number of J/psi which we found, together with the
expected number from random muons, and our various
efficiencies, we calculate that the rate of production of J/psi
from all sources in this specific angular region and with
Pt>10 GeV/c, per unit 'eta', times the (well known) rate at which
J/psi decays to two muons is 192 +- 9(statistical error) +- 29
(systematic error) picobarns. The statistical error is due to
the fact that we do not have an infinite number of these events
to study, and reflects the likelihood of random fluctuations in
number.

The systematic error reflects the uncertainties in our modeling of
the efficiencies.

"...Using the number of J/psi which we found, together with the
expected number from random muons..."

RANDOM MUONS ---- MISSING MASS

----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Muon Physics: Many of the experiment's physics goals
(rare decay searches, studies of beauty mixing, searches for
charm mixing, etc.) rely on efficient muon identification with
excellent background rejection. For example, if the experiment
is to push the search for rare decays to new levels of
sensitivity the muon misidentification probability will have
to be first-rate.

"...muon misidentification probability will have
to be first-rate. ..."

MUON MISIDENTIFICATION --- APPARENTLY OTHER MASS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------


The J/psi mesons we looked at were produced with the
experimentally convenient quantity eta ( = -ln(tan(theta/2)) )
satisfying 2.1<abs(eta)<2.6 (between 8.5 and 14 degrees
away from the beamline). The momentum of the J/psi
perpendicular to the beamline (called Pt) had to exceed
10 GeV/c. We look at this space and momentum region
because J/psis in that angular region produce muons at
angles covered by our detectors, and because at lower
Pt the backgrounds are high and the number of muons
which miss the detector is also high.

",,,The momentum of the J/psi perpendicular to the
beamline (called Pt) had to exceed 10 GeV/c. ..."

SO THERE ARE 10GeV (A LOT OF MASS) PERPENDICULAR
TO THE BEAM.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
In a large-acceptance spectrometer at Fermilab, we have
searched for multimuon events produced in collisions of
225-GeV/c protons and ..pi../sup + -/ mesons with nuclei.
In particular, additional muons accompanying the
J/psi..--> mu mu.. decay could signal charmed-particle
production.For all data combined, the 90%-confidence limit
on charmed-particle production in association with the psi is
sigma/sub J C C//sigma/sub J/<0.01; the limit on production
of J/psi pairs is sigma/sub J J//sigma/sub J/<0.021.^Limits
are also given for each beam particle separately.

"In particular, additional muons accompanying the
J/psi..--> mu mu...."

WELL,WELL SO THERE ARE ADDITIONAL" MUONS
IN THE REACTION. MISSING MASS

Over and above all that the collision is one of
225-GeV --- a hell of a lot of mass.

Ever hear of bremsstrahlung? When the proton hits its target
there has to be a ton of radiation given off. That is also
"missing mass"


What you've done is to quote only part of the reacton so as to
substantiate your claim.

I don't know whether you did that out of ignorance or
subterfuge. But in any event you are wrong --- as usual.

He is not wrong. All the the "missing mass" from the J/psi --> u-u+ is
converted to kinetic energy of the outgoing muons. I think you missed
that part somewhere. ;-)

FrediFizzx

Where is the mass when you assume the frame of reference of the
outgoing muon?

Richard Perry

.

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