Re: Special Relativity is Dead! (Final Proof)


Paul B. Andersen wrote:
Eric Gisse wrote:
Henri Wilson wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:58:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
<paul.b.andersen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 21:28:53 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
<paul.b.andersen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:55:09 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
<paul.b.andersen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:45:34 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
<paul.b.andersen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
<paul.b.andersen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment]
You don't have to go to all this trouble.
As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth
from rotating.
Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote
clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited.
I would like your answer the question at the end
of this posting.

Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions
around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is
one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36).
Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting
the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis
(the pitch axis).
The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and
returning to the same point one sidereal day later.

Case 1:
The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 2 and 0)

Case 2:
The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 1 and 1)

Now the question I would like you to answer:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth
somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?
THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION.

We are talking about clock rates.

You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read
differently when reunited.

I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in
the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still
read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory).

But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they
obviously should NOT read differently when reunited.

Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object.
So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect
an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of
the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?
No answer, Henri?

We're talking about clocks, not ring gyros.
Doesn't matter. Same problem.
They are both instruments inside the planes.

So we could make the question more general:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will
affect instruments inside the plane?

How is it that the H&K clocks would miraculously know how to change rates if
the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating?
How is it that the gyros in my thought experiment would miraculously
know how to change the rotation if the (remote) Earth suddenly
stopped rotating?

The answer should be obvious, Henri.
And the answer is the same whether we are talking
about clocks or gyros.

I will give you a hint:
What is it the gyros measure?
Why are the results different in case 1 and 2?
What is the relevance of the Earth?
Paul, as usual you run away from the real topic and stall for time by talking
about something entirely irrelevant.

IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE
CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN
REUNITED?

THIS SHOWS HOW NOINSENSICAL THE H&K REALLY IS.

WOULDN'T YOU AGREE?
IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE
GYROS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR MEASUREMENTS SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN
REUNITED?

Why don't you answer?
Because the question is completely irrelevant.

Is it because you can't, or is it because you don't
like the answer you would have to give?
I will answer you.

The gyros will tell each plane when it has done a complete 360 turn.
It makes no difference whether the Earth stops spinning or not.
Of course. That is indeed the obvious answer.
The gyros and the clocks give different results in
the two scenarios, because the _planes_ move in two very
different ways in the two scenarios.
As you so correctly point out, it does not matter if the Earth
is spinning or not.

So the answers to your question:
" IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE
CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN
REUNITED?"
and my question:
"IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE
GYROS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR MEASUREMENTS SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN
REUNITED?"
are exactly the same:

The clocks or the gyros don't have to know anything about
the rotation of the Earth because it does not affect them
in any way, it is the pathes of the planes through space and time
that determine what the instruments will show at the end of their journey.

In case 1, one plane is stationary in a non rotating frame,
while the other plane is moving twice around a circle at the speed 3340 km/h.
In case 2, both planes are moving in opposite directions once around a circle
at the same speed 1670 km/h.

"It makes no difference whether the Earth stops spinning or not."

Remember that for the future.

Case closed.
The case is indeed closed.
You have agreed that the H&K MUST give a null result.

There is no possible way to interpret what Paul said to mean that.

Henri knows that very well.
This is only his way of diverting the attention from the fact
that he himself, by pointing out that it is the motion of
of the _planes_ and not the rotation of the Earth that determines
what instruments in the planes will show, demonstrated that his babble
about stopping the rotation of the Earth is stupid.

Then we get to hear about his confusion about why there is an
asymmetry, then someone will try to explain the clocks in the planes
were compared to the clocks on the ground, and then Henri will
misunderstand in a new way...etc


Paul

.

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