Re: twins versus quanta collapse

On Mar 24, 2:44 am, "Bill Hobba" <rubb...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
"beda pietanza" <beda-pieta...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:1174690326.511708.97250@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx





N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) ha scritto:

Dear beda pietanza:

"beda pietanza" <beda-pieta...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1174654625.420283.288110@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Tell me if the analogy holds:

Twins are generated by black eye fathers and green
eyed mothers (they can be monozycotes or eterozycotes).

Let it be the "green eye" or the "black eye" our
observable variable.

The twins A and B come out and are sealed, each one,
in a closed box, we have to predict the color of the
eyes of twin B by opening the box of twin A and look
at the color of the twin A eyes: we don't know anything
about the genetic laws and about the color of the eyes
of the parents.

By statistically taking track of the outcomes we see
a strong correlation between the color of the eye of
twin A and twin B.

Of course the correlation is preesistent at our
opening the twin box A nevertheless the prediction is
only possible after we open the twin A box not
before.

This is a clear case of hidden variable: the genetic
and the parent eyes.

please comment and help me to swallow a indigest bite.

You invoke a population to obtain your "strong correllation".
You ignore the implication of homo- versus hetero-zygous when you
assume "strong correllation". It will be strong for homozygous,
less so for heterozygous.
Prediction is possible by observing the parents, and no longer
requires opening the box.

As I made it clear the genetic laws and the color of the eyes of
parents are ignored by the experimenters, who are entitle (for each
couple of twins) to only open the twin box A and try to predict the
outcome of twin box B.

From the statistic of the generic twins population, the experimenters
know that green eyed and black eyed twins are even 50% each.

(Twins can be identical (eyes correlation 100%) or different (eyes
correlation none))

If there were no entanglement between the twins there would be no
possibility to predict the outcome of B simply by looking at A.

Instead the experimenters are able to predict with a efficacy of 75%
that twin B will have the same color of twin A, this kind of collapse
of variability of the outcome of B is the analogy I am trying to make.

(The prediction would be 100% correct if we exclude the twins not
identical) still of this tampering the experimenters must know
nothing.

In this case the explanation lay on the hidden variables (the genetic
laws and the parents eyes color) that the experimenters ignore.

It has been explained to you before that the Kochen-Specker theorem proves
hidden variables in the classical sense can not explain QM. The best that
can be hoped for is some theory that in some kind of limit becomes QM. Such
theories have been proposed, and you are quite at liberty to choose one of
them as your interpretation of QM. However they are not at this stage
amenable to experimental verification.

Thanks
Bill



Thanks Bill. I will also offer to Beda another comment in relation to
the Kochen-Specker theorem and the color of the twin's eyes. The
color of an eye is an observable that has a definite value at all
times. This is unlike e.g. the position of an electron, which is a
statistical moment (average) of some operator on a distribution
function, commonly written as <psi|x|psi> or some such. In other
words, the hidden variables work fine to understand the eye colors or
even the status of Schrodinger's cat, in that the atomic number of a
radioactive nuclei is also an observable with a definite value at all
times, but may not work to define something like temperature of a gas
or position of an electron, which are not really well-defined
observables until after observation when reconstruction can be used.

To put it another way, what if you open a box and you see eyes that
are greenish black?




.

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