Re: Bohr's Atom still number one

On May 6, 7:27 am, bz <bz+...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"g...@xxxxxxxxxxx" <g...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote innews:1178437093.869316.10400@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:





On May 5, 4:29 pm, bz <bz+...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"g...@xxxxxxxxxxx" <g...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
innews:1178394138.430885.325220@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

On May 5, 10:41 am, bz <bz+...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
snip too long

....
My main point is that the Bohr model predicts a
rapid loss of energy with all electrons collapsing into the nucleus.
Bohr could not explain why orbiting electrons would not radiate
constantly.

By radiate, you mean emit photons?

Yes.

Why would they need to radiate
under Bohrs?

Because they are undergoing constant acceleration toward the nucleus,
just as the earth undergoes constant acceleration toward the sun.

You mean F=ma acceleration?...

The earth undergoes F=G M m / r^2 acceleration, just as the moon does. Just
as the ball you just threw does.

I don't know if I would call it
acceleration if the forces cancel out so that the Earth remains at a
constant orbital from the Sun?

The only difference between your jumping off of the empire state building
and hitting the ground(homework: how long will it take? Show your work!
Assume no air friction) and your orbiting the Earth is your horizontal
velocity. If you were fired from a cannon at the right velocity (and there
was no air friction) you would orbit the earth (homework: compute the
velocity for an orbit at the height of the top of the empire state
building. Show all work.)



The Earth is made of electrons...regardless of atom or Sun the
electrons should radiate since they and the Earth undergo constant
acceleration toward the sun and by a very very large amount
considering the forces at hand and the number of electrons in the
Earth?

If you had a ball of electrons the size of the earth, your argument might
be correct.



And why collapse into the nucleus...since protons repulse them

Protons repulse them????
Unlike charges attract. Protons are positive. Electrons are negative.

Oops I was drinking beer at the time.

That might explain why you have not been doing your homework, but is no
excuse.



What do you think causes electrons to associate with protons anyway?

"They" not me say it's due to photon(phase relationship) exchange.

You advocate the Bohr theory. You can't invoke quantum theory. You have to
be consistent. You can call on OLDER theories but not newer ones.







and
electrons have a high velocity?

What makes you think they have a high velocity in the atom?

They don't in the modern atomic theory, but, you are correct when you
think that, in Bohrs model, they will need to be traveling.

They will need to be attracted to the nucleus. That attraction will
'push' them toward the nucleus. Only their speed keeps them from
reaching it.

Ok but you just said: > What makes you think they have a high velocity
in the atom?

If they didn't they would crash into the nucleus

Under Bohr's theory that is correct. But under Bohr's theory, the orbits
quickly decay because the accelerating electrons emit radiation.



Electrons, when ever they travel at a high speed and their direction of
travel is changed, radiate energy.

....

How do they gain it back....otherwise they would crash into the
nucleus?

They don't, under Bohr's theory, that is why it was rejected.







(energy = heat from reaction = photons)

Not all energy is manafest as photons.

Correct, but they would know what happens to the photons(emitted or
absorbed) from the total Energy of the reaction (before and after).

A chemical reaction may require energy of activation (to get the
reactants across an energy barrier.) It may absorb or give off heat,
depending on whether the products are in a lower energy state than
the reactants.

Don't know my chemistry....say 2H+ + O- + E = H2O +....

No.

2H2 + O2 --> 2 H2O + energy

Bravo..!

They should know the total energy before and after of chemical
reactions

Those can usually be predicted.

(therefore the total photons produced or absorbed as well)?

Whether or not photons are produced depends on the reaction
conditions. For example, if the reaction takes place inside a fuel
cell, the energy produced is in the form of electromotive force
rather than photons.

Ok but that's not my point which is you said they weren't sure when
the photons are emitted or instead absorbed...

I did NOT say 'they are not sure'.

I re-pasted your past answer below here:

You previously said:
*******************************************
All we know for sure is that changes in energy state SOMETIMES
are accompanied by emission of photons and that absorption of a
photon results in changes in the energy level(s).
********************************************

There's a difference between SOMETIMES...and knowing exactly what
occurs during a chemical reaction.

What makes you think I was talking about chemical reactions?

I was talking about Atoms OR Molecules in transition between two
different states of excitement. Transitions are only associated with
photon emission/absorbtion _some of the time_. NOT all the time.

My point being that you should NOT assume that photons are always
emitted or absorbed because it is not true.

An electron cannot get closer to a nucleus (Atomic orbital) without
radiating energy and losing velocity.

Under Bohr's theory, that is correct. And under Bohr's theory, they fall
into the nucleus very quickly.



My point was your canon ball. The canon ball does NOT undergo constant
acceleration.

For the same reason (excluding friction) the canon don't crash into
the Earth...the electron don't crash into the nucleus.
This should not affect Bohr's theory. You're talking about angular
acceleration and this is invisble both to the electron and the canon.

The electron and canon are in ****their**** opinion not accelerating,
thus neither needs to radiate anything.
The electron and canon are in their opinion traveling at a constant
velocity.

IF THEY WERE TO FEEL ANYTHING AT ALL THEN THEY WOULD BE
****************SLOWING DOWN***********



One could be ground state and the other could be a triplet state, for
example. Or we could be talking about transition from an excited state
to a triplet state.

Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence

....>> > The sun will also be affected and there will be a similar
delay
before this occurs.

You may be right, but I recommend that you study physics, chemistry and
math.

Master those subjects before you try the more challenging subjects like
'Elementry Omnipotence and Omniscience', the graduate courses in
'Godhood', and the PostDoctoral position of 'Master of the Universe'.

Your questions show that you are not doing your homework.

Lay off the beer. Open the books.

--
bz

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

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