Re: Sagnac Threads United

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:25:46 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
<paul.b.andersen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
No Paul, my model has been slightly altered...so you will have to repeat your
exercise with the new feature included.
Why has a correct theory to be changed all the time?

There is either a 180 phase shift at the 4 mirror OR there is no phase shift
but the phasing is reversed at he 45 mirror. Both will agree with the BaTh
result as per www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/ringgyro.htm.
Of no consequence.
Remember that the phase relationship when the ring is not rotating
is the reference. It doesn't matter if there is a bright or dark fringe
in the center, it is the offset of the fringes when the ring is rotating
that is measured. So you only have to find how the phase difference
depend on the angular velocity, a constant offset is of no consequence.

I will have to animate the model but meanwhile, here is a simple way to
visualise what happens.
Replace the front of a photon with a 'phase wheel'. Mark a spot on the rim.
At the start point, the two rays are represented by two overlying wheels, with
both marks lined up, sitting on the edge of the ring.

The movement of the rays is simulated by rolling the two wheels in opposite
directions arond the ring. The circumference is the wavelength...same in both
rays.

It is obvious that the two wheel are generally NOT in phase when they meet at
the detector, the position of which is determined as previosuly outlined.
Ah. :-)
This is obvious only if your photons are rolling in the non-rotating
frame, and not in the Sagnac ring (source frame).
If your photons are rolling in the source frame, that is advancing
one circumference l in the source frame during the time l/c, then they
will obviously be in phase when they meet. They will both have made 2pi*r/l
revolutions when they simultaneously meet at the detector.

This is a rather hurried version of what happens if the wheels rotate in
different directions. The phasing is generally different at the detector..

http://www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/wheels.exe
done the code for the 180 phase shift yet.

Quite.
Your 'photons' are rolling in the inertial frame, as described below.

But if they are rolling in the inertial frame, that is they are
advancing one circumference l in the inertial frame during
the times l/(c+v) and l/(c-v), then they will be out of phase by
delta_phi = 2pi(Nf-Nb) where the number of revolutions will be:
Nf = (2pi.r/c)/(l/(c+v))= (2pi.r/lc)(c+v)
Nb = (2pi.r/c)/(l/(c-v))= (2pi.r/lc)(c-v)
delta_pi = (2pi.2pi.r/lc)2v = 8pi^2.rv/lc
inserting A = pi.r^2 and w = v/r:
delta_pi = 8pi.Aw/lc
which is in accordance with experimental evidence.

But what have you now done, Henri?

Let's call the distance advanced during one revolution d.
In the inertial frame this is trivially d = l
(where l still is the circumference of your 'photon')
In the source frame, they are different for your two photons:
d_f = 2pi.r/Nf = lc/(c+v)
d_b = 2pi.r/Nb = lc/(c-v)

How do your photons know how to advance a different distance
from the source per revolution, Henri?
Have they according to your BaTh any other reference than the source?
And why don't your photons advance one wavelength per revolution?

Wrong.
Run the program again.....the wavelength is the same for all ring speeds

My analysis is correct.
The advanced distance per revolution _in the source frame_
is different from the circumference of your 'photons'.

Generally:
How does a photon emitted from a source know which
frame of reference it is supposed to advance one
wavelength per revolution in, when it isn't the source frame?

No answer, Henri?
How do your 'photons' know which frame of reference they
are supposed to roll in, when it is not in the soutce frame?

Lets look at the frequencies (revolutions per second)
of your photons:

frequency = speed/(advanced distance during one revolution)
In the inertial frame:
f_f = (c+v)/l
f_b = (c-v)/l

Is this because of Doppler shift maybe?

In the source frame:
f_f = c/(lc/(c+v))= (c+v)/l
f_b = c/(lc/(c-v))= (c-v)/l

They are still different! No Doppler shift!
(Obviously! With absolute time (Galilean relativity),
your photons rotates once during the same time in
any frame of reference.)

Your photons emitted from the same source have different
frequencies in the source frame!

You do understand that this is fatal for your 'slightly
altered model', don't you?

I think you will have to slightly alter your model yet again, Henri.
What will it be this time? :-)

No problem Paul.
The 'frequency' you are refering to is just the 'wavecrest' arrival rate. It is
different for each ray because of the different speeds.

The frequency I am refering to is the number of
revolutions per time unit of your 'photons'.
They are different for your two photons emitted from the same source.

Alternatively, the wheels can rotate in the same sense but with an initial
phase difference of 180. (the marks are opposite each other at the start point)

Again, the phase the detector will not generally be the same.

Get it?
Yes.
Did you?
All your inventions are of course nonsensical.
But it is fun to see you struggle. :-)

....Henri, amused and still struggling with a theory that gets the right
answer....and proves Sagnac is fully explained by BaTh.

Your model is so nonsensical and idiotic that it's getting boring.
Your 'BaTh' has nothing common with Ritz Emission Theory at all.
The latter makes sense, even if it is falsified.
The former doesn't make sense at all.

--
Paul

http://home.c2i.net/pb_andersen/
.

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