Re: Sagnac Threads United

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:11:20 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
<paul.b.andersen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson skrev:
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:20:20 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
<paul.b.andersen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:25:46 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
<paul.b.andersen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

This is a rather hurried version of what happens if the wheels rotate in
different directions. The phasing is generally different at the detector..

http://www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/wheels.exe
done the code for the 180 phase shift yet.
Quite.
Your 'photons' are rolling in the inertial frame, as described below.

But if they are rolling in the inertial frame, that is they are
advancing one circumference l in the inertial frame during
the times l/(c+v) and l/(c-v), then they will be out of phase by
delta_phi = 2pi(Nf-Nb) where the number of revolutions will be:
Nf = (2pi.r/c)/(l/(c+v))= (2pi.r/lc)(c+v)
Nb = (2pi.r/c)/(l/(c-v))= (2pi.r/lc)(c-v)
delta_pi = (2pi.2pi.r/lc)2v = 8pi^2.rv/lc
inserting A = pi.r^2 and w = v/r:
delta_pi = 8pi.Aw/lc
which is in accordance with experimental evidence.

But what have you now done, Henri?

Let's call the distance advanced during one revolution d.
In the inertial frame this is trivially d = l
(where l still is the circumference of your 'photon')
In the source frame, they are different for your two photons:
d_f = 2pi.r/Nf = lc/(c+v)
d_b = 2pi.r/Nb = lc/(c-v)

How do your photons know how to advance a different distance
from the source per revolution, Henri?
Have they according to your BaTh any other reference than the source?
And why don't your photons advance one wavelength per revolution?
Wrong.
Run the program again.....the wavelength is the same for all ring speeds
My analysis is correct.
The advanced distance per revolution _in the source frame_
is different from the circumference of your 'photons'.

Generally:
How does a photon emitted from a source know which
frame of reference it is supposed to advance one
wavelength per revolution in, when it isn't the source frame?
No answer, Henri?
How do your 'photons' know which frame of reference they
are supposed to roll in, when it is not in the soutce frame?
There is only one frame involved....the nonrotating frame of the ring centre.
No answer, Henri?
How do your 'photons' know which frame of reference they
are supposed to roll in, when it is not in the source frame?

Didn't you say that according to the BaTh, the only reference
the photons have is the source? So how do they know that they
are supposed to roll in a frame of reference where the source
is moving?

Both rays move at c wrt the source. That is what the animation shows.
They move at c+v and c-v in the nonrotating frame of the ring. that is what the
animation shows.
What could be more simple?

I do of course not expect a sensible answer, because there is none.
I would however expect you to understand that your 'model'
is self contradictory nonsense.

You have your answer. It should have been obvious even to a Tusselad....

I got the answer I expected - none.
The question was:
How do your 'photons' know which frame of reference they
are supposed to _roll_ in, when it is not in the source frame?

Didn't you say that according to the BaTh, the only reference
the photons have is the source? So how do they know that they
are supposed to _roll_ in a frame of reference where the source
is moving?

look at the frequencies (revolutions per second)
of your photons:

frequency = speed/(advanced distance during one revolution)
In the inertial frame:
f_f = (c+v)/l
f_b = (c-v)/l

Is this because of Doppler shift maybe?

In the source frame:
f_f = c/(lc/(c+v))= (c+v)/l
f_b = c/(lc/(c-v))= (c-v)/l

They are still different! No Doppler shift!
(Obviously! With absolute time (Galilean relativity),
your photons rotates once during the same time in
any frame of reference.)

Your photons emitted from the same source have different
frequencies in the source frame!

You do understand that this is fatal for your 'slightly
altered model', don't you?

I think you will have to slightly alter your model yet again, Henri.
What will it be this time? :-)
No problem Paul.
The 'frequency' you are refering to is just the 'wavecrest' arrival rate. It is
different for each ray because of the different speeds.
The frequency I am refering to is the number of
revolutions per time unit of your 'photons'.
They are different for your two photons emitted from the same source.
Paul, let me explain.

I have defined a 'wavelength' as the absolute distance a photon moves (at c) in
its source frame during one cycle of its INTRINSIC oscillation, whatever that
might be.
Like all lengths, this wavelength is the same in all inetial frames.

In a ring gyro, the speeds and path lengths are different. The travel times are
the same. The phase difference at the detector is just the 'path length
difference'/lambda

If one assumes that the phase of any 'photon' goes through 360 degrees every
time it travels a distance equal to one of its absolute wavelengths then one
can derive the equation that predicts the correct, EXPERIMENTALLY VERIFIED
fringe displacement. This occurs IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PHOTONS SPEED relative to
anything else.

get it?
Yes.
You are saying that the model you just proposed is wrong.
Yet another failed 'model'.

Paul, what are your trying to achieve. Are you trying desperately to show that
my theory, WHICH PRODUCES THE RIGHT ANSWER, DOES NOT produce the right answer?

Your description above is different from the 'model' in your 'animation',
which only can mean that the 'model' in your 'animation' according to yourself
is wrong.

Actually it is so nonsensical that it isn't even wrong.

If so, this shows a degee of desperation probably necessitating a visit to a
psychiatrist.

I probably should.
I must be mad to waste my time on this nonsense.

--
Paul

http://home.c2i.net/pb_andersen/
.

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