Re: Are there any civil anti-relativists?

On Feb 4, 3:09 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Feb 4, 12:10 pm, PD <TheDraperFam...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:





On Feb 4, 12:01 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Feb 4, 6:14 am, PD <TheDraperFam...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Feb 3, 2:50 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Feb 3, 12:20 pm, PD <TheDraperFam...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Feb 2, 10:35 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Feb 2, 7:12�pm, "Jeckyl" <no...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"rbwinn" <rbwi...@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:666a63c9-3227-4657-af7d-16466d133224@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Feb 2, 6:30?pm, "Jeckyl" <no...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
We know you don't think. That's you're problem. ?That is why there is no
point in explaining the problems to someone who is simply incapable of
understanding the math and the physics invovled- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, I do understand the principle of equivalence.

No .. you don't. �You have shown you clearly have nowhere near the knowledge
of physics or math required to talk about what you ar etalking about.

The principle of equivalence shows that if a baseball is put in orbit
around the earth at the altitude of the moon, it will have the same
velocity as the moon.

That result has nothing whatsoever to do with the principle of
equivalence. What on earth do you think the "principle of equivalence"
is? Does it have anything to do with the "principle of relativity"?

So explain the velocity and orbit of your
satellite with its slower clock.  I can explain it with the Galilean
transformation equations.  The clock time is n'.  You have to use t'
to compute the orbit and velocity.
Robert B. Winn- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, you people who believe Aristotle might not know about Galileo.
Galileo dropped two different sized rocks off from the top of the
leaning tower of Pisa, and they hit the ground at the same time.  So
now we go back to the original question, which was about the orbit of
a satellite.  A satellit is orbiting the earth.  Scientists say that a
clock in the satellite ticks fewer times during an orbit around the
earth than an identical clock on earth.  So what is the velocity of
the satellite?

The velocity of the satellite is what is predicted by Newtonian
mechanics
F=ma,
where the left-hand side is GMm/r^2, what Newton said applied between
all gravitating bodies
and
where the right-hand side is m*v^2/r, which is true for all bodies in
circular orbit.

Since you know M (mass of the earth), r (the radius of the orbit), G
(measured constant), and m cancels out, v pops out directly.

There is not a lick of "principle of equivalence" or "principle of
relativity" in any of that.

Well, yes, there is.  The principle of equivalence is how Newton
derived his equation.  He determined that the object in orbit was
falling toward the object it was orbiting at a rate that kept it at
the same altitude.  Since the mass of an object does not affect its
speed of descent, (principle of equivalence), he was able to compute
equations for gravitation.

If you mean that the mass m cancels out of GMm/r^2 = mv^2/r, and this
is how he was able to compute the velocity because of that, then I
think I agree with that statement. Note that the result is
v = sqrt(GM/r), a direct algebraic result that even a welder could
follow.

    Now, once again, if the clock in the satellite is slower than a
clock on the ground, are you saying that the clock on the ground will
give the true velocity for the satellite and the clock in the
satellite will give a velocity that is too fast?  If so, that is what
my equations say also.

What do you mean by a "true velocity"? Velocity is a function of
reference frame. You cannot tell me, as you sit there on your chair,
what your "true velocity" is. The only thing you can tell me is your
velocity relative to some other reference point, and even that is a
function of reference frame.

PD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, the astronaut has a velocity of 0 relative to the satellite.  I
think we both understand that.  The satellite has a velocity relative
to the earth.  How does the astronaut compute the velocity of the
satellite relative to the earth if his clock is running slower?

The calculation I outlined above is done in the frame of reference of
the Earth. As you can see, in the reference frame of the astronaut,
the satellite is not going around in a circle at all. Perhaps you need
some practice at doing physical descriptions of phenomena in different
reference frames. Let's start with a ball of 0.2 kg being whirled at
the end of a string around your head at a rate of 2 Hz. Tell me, Mr.
Winn, what is the net force and net acceleration of the ball in the
reference frame in which your head is at rest? And what is the net
force and net acceleration of the ball in the reference frame in which
the ball is at rest?

PD
.

Relevant Pages

  • The Making of Observations in Relativistic Systems
    ... the transported clock recorded less elapsed time than the identical clock that ... gasoline in two different locations (reference frame #1 and reference frame #2) ... take in consideration the relative sizes of the units of measurement for fluid ... measurements between reference frames (elevation or velocity). ...
    (sci.physics.particle)
  • The Making of Observations in Relativistic Systems
    ... the transported clock recorded less elapsed time than the identical clock that ... gasoline in two different locations (reference frame #1 and reference frame #2) ... take in consideration the relative sizes of the units of measurement for fluid ... measurements between reference frames (elevation or velocity). ...
    (sci.physics.particle)
  • The Making of Observations in Relativistic Systems (#15)
    ... the transported clock recorded less elapsed time than the identical clock that ... gasoline in two different locations (reference frame #1 and reference frame #2) ... take in consideration the relative sizes of the units of measurement for fluid ... measurements between reference frames (elevation or velocity). ...
    (sci.physics.particle)
  • The Making of Observations in Relativistic Systems
    ... the transported clock recorded less elapsed time than the identical clock that ... gasoline in two different locations (reference frame #1 and reference frame #2) ... take in consideration the relative sizes of the units of measurement for fluid ... measurements between reference frames (elevation or velocity). ...
    (sci.physics)
  • The Making of Observations in Relativistic Systems
    ... the transported clock recorded less elapsed time than the identical clock that ... gasoline in two different locations (reference frame #1 and reference frame #2) ... take in consideration the relative sizes of the units of measurement for fluid ... measurements between reference frames (elevation or velocity). ...
    (sci.physics)