Re: space: gravity's effect on time and expansion?

On Feb 11, 12:30 pm, Ben Shoemate <ben.shoem...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Feb 10, 4:35 am, lith...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:



On Feb 9, 9:43 am, Ben Shoemate <ben.shoem...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Feb 6, 1:36 am, lith...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Feb 3, 12:48 pm, Ben Shoemate <ben.shoem...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Last night, as I was watching the new series "The Universe", I was
reminded of a particularly interesting facet of Einstein's relativity
theory - the effect of gravity on time (www.mth.uct.ac.za/omei/gr/
chap5/node8.html) Bottom line of that theory is that time passes
slower when you are inside a gravitational field.If time is passes
faster the further away from a gravitation field you get, wouldn't
that explain why the universe is expanding faster? Eventually, as
galaxies get further apart, there is less and less gravity in inner-
galactic space, thus (I would assume) time is going faster between
galaxies and the "normal" expansion process would be occurring at an
accelerated pace. In other words, are voids growing faster than matter
rich areas of the universe because everything happens faster there?
Including expansion?

Not only that, but the expansion itself is causing gravity to be less
and less on an influence because the galaxies are now further away
(more space-time between them). Will time eventually become a run-away
engine in the vast emptiness of space? Will the speed of time approach
infinity in areas of the universe billions of light years from other
matter?

I posted more detail about my question on my blog but I haven't gotten
any responses ...www.benshoemate.com/2008/01/31/science-question-if-the-universe-is-ex...

Actually gravity's slowing of time can be argued to expand space.
If you know about the slowing of time and that its effect on light is
equal as it must be then here is a thought experiment for you.
Do you know about the polvalt in the barn thought experiment where
they teach how relativity is supposed to contract a rod as it gets
closer to light speed and then argue that a longer rod could fit
inside the barn with both doors closed.The experiment can be shown not
to work in part because to the rods prospective its the barn that gets
shorter. No need to go into it much deeper as it just wont work. Now
think about what happens if you put a black hole inside the barn and
try the experiment again. Note that if you slow light by a large
enought margin you can easily see that you should be able to close
both doors and with a significantly longer rod than the barn should be
able to hold and then have enough time to walk around and let the rod
out.In other words the rod has experienced an increase in space.You
can show how the creation of black holes will result in an expansion
of space in their creation that gives the same predictions as those
for the inflation theory.
Dale

Actually my thought experiment was more like envisioning the universe
as a loaf of bread or angel food cake. The bread has gaps, air
bubbles, voids in it - these are comparable to the large voids in the
universe that exist between the galaxies and groups of galaxies. There
is no matter in these gaps and they are very far from the gravity of
the galaxies. The entire loaf of bread is expanding but only because
the air bubbles are getting bigger - there is not more bread being
created and the galaxies themselves are not getting any larger. Also
we have noticed by comparing the galaxies far far away (and thus a
long long time ago) that they used to be closer together and now they
are far apart. As we look at the galaxies closer and closer to us we
see that the spreading out of galaxies is happening at a faster and
faster rate. We also notice that time is effected by gravity, that
time passes slower where gravity is stronger. So time is not uniform
across the entire loaf of bread, in the empty parts, the air bubbles,
time is litterally passing faster. Anything that happens in those
empty parts (the space between galaxies) would appear to those inside
the galaxies, like us, to be happening faster. As the gaps get bigger,
the gravity gets weaker, time passes faster still.

My premise: Since the only thing happening in these gaps is the
expansion of space-time, the rising of the bread, it is expansion
itself that is getting fast and faster in these voids.

Up until now, the official party line seems to be that the universe is
expanding faster because some kind of unknown, invisible energy is
pushing it apart. That there is a battle between gravity, a
constricting force, and dark energy, a repulsive force.

I wonder why dark energy is needed when we already have observations
that show that time dilation occurs, and if you apply that concept to
the vast, gravity weak, voids of space, it seems logical to me that
you would see acceleration happen naturally without the need for the
invisible hand of dark energy.

Looked at your web site.
Actually the alternative theory I described earlier explains this
nicely in another proposed experiment to prove the theory,reduction to
practice problems ignored.
Normally objects in free fall always fall towards a common center such
as a planet but if you were to somehow string up a series of planets
into a rod you would have one axis where free falling objects would
not fall towards a common center This axis is of course the one along
the length of the rod. No center point to confuse explaining this.
If the effect of gravity slows time and this slowing of time were to
contract mater guess what is predicted.
2 cubes placed beside each other on a free falling space ship will
start contracting as you go farther into the gravity well and
depending on where you are they will either appear to contract or
appear to travel away from each other.If you were inside of this space
ship in free fall you would see the cubes appearing to move away from
each other.On the other hand a distant external observer will see the
cubes stay in one place but instead shrink in size.Space ship will
also shrink but we can ignore that here.

By analogy its somewhat like placing two cubes of jellow beside each
other and letting them dry out. Note that the two cubs do not actually
move from their centers of gravity but they will contract as they dry
showing extra space between them.

If universe's are inside of black holes then any extra mass added will
cause that space inside to increase.Its possible that with time it
could just be that the gravity's from extra distant mass could come
into view and show their effects.Speed of light being what it is such
delays are conceivable but more thought is needed here.

Dale

Are you proposing that galaxies appear to move apart because the space
the occupy is shrinking in size? And that the acceleration of this
expansion is due to an acceleration in the shrinking?

I think I missed the main point of you question.Actually I don't
really know why the expansion is still occurring. But this alternative
theory dose predict white holes see my previous posting where I look
at how universes were created inside of black holes.If we are inside
of a black hole then we must have an event horizon were matter and
energy can still arrive from the previous universe.
These would appear as white holes where the event horizon would be
viewed from the inside.More mass can add and increase the size of the
black hole from the outside and the space on the inside as well.Its
ironic that adding more mass can add more space and I wish I had a
closet that worked that way.Larger black holes can in theory tend to
grow at increasing speeds due to being larger are also collecting
inters teller gas etc from more area.
Lat part of my posting where I said that antimatter leads to
speculation on warp drive I should have said added extra speculation.
Part where I said about how point particles see space expand I should
have emphasizes the extremes of this.Remember that our point particles
view would be of the distances of their original neutron star of only
about 100km or so and then going into a space of 15 billion light
years or more across is huge.Note the way that from the point
particles would see every point as the center due to the way light
needs time to travel.
This theory dose give some of the same predictions as the now popular
inflation theory its not been closely looked at to be really sure
about how closely and what if any differences one might find.
One of the interesting ideas about white holes is that if they exist
would prove this theory is correct but the white holes would only be
visible if something is falling into them.It would be interesting to
look at cosmic rays to see if they could be lower energy particles or
light that had been shifted into higher energy from a previous
universe due to coming from a white hole.They would be extraordinary
as they would probably appear in more than one place in our universe
yet if you got close to one you would see there was only the one.They
would display repulsive gravity but in reality it might be like saying
that the sky has repulsive gravity.
And of course the strangest thing about them is they would provide
shortcuts to other parts of the universe and if they exist will be the
best proof ever of the possibility of warp drives. Later on when I get
some extra courage about looking like a fool I would like to post
asking about if quasars could have been mistaken white holes.I will
need to ask if anyone has ever actually seen anything accelerating
towards and falling into one as that would be proof that they cannot
be white holes.I really don't know much about them.
Dale
.

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