Re: What is Proper Time?

In sci.physics.relativity, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson)
<HW@>
wrote
on Sun, 09 Mar 2008 21:29:28 GMT
<gpk8t3lg0akfigbrgo54ptls9dith43aq0@xxxxxxx>:
On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 16:48:26 -0800, The Ghost In The Machine
<ewill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In sci.physics.relativity, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson)
<HW@>
wrote
on Sat, 08 Mar 2008 22:58:20 GMT

Even if the source was moving it would make no difference.
It would simply mean that the light speed around the apparatus was c+v instead
of c.

If one uses a spinning device to feed the MMX, of size
about 10cm in diameter and running at 12,000 RPM, the edge
speed is about 63 m/s, or 2.1 * 10^-7 c. Bouncing light
off this device (assuming the edge is rotating in the
opposite direction of the beam, in an attempt to slow it
down) should result in something like the following:

lambda/lambda_0[*] nu/nu_0 c/c_0

nBAT: 1 1 - 2.1 * 10^-7 1 - 2.1 * 10^-7
SR: 1 + 2.1 * 10^-7 1 - 2.1 * 10^-7 1
Androcles: 1 - 2.1 * 10^-7 1 1 - 2.1 * 10^-7
BaTH: ? ? ?
Shouldn't you double the value?

Nope. Mathematically, v = lambda * frequency.

S--------->c-------------------------M<-2.1E-7c
O-------------<4.2E-7c------------M<-2.1E-7c

speeds are shown relative to S/O.

Could you clarify this diagram, please? What do these values relate to?



BaTh says the same.

It can't say the same. All other theories are
distance-independent. In other words, for both nBAT and
SR the values of lamba and nu are the same regardless of
whether I'm 1 meter, 1 lightyear, or 1 billion lightyears
away (assuming no other artifacts exist that slow down or
speed up light using gravity or other such).

Since BaTH is clearly distance-dependent from your statements,
I can't say it's equal to anything.

Ghost, BaTh is quite simple.
Doppler shift is relative speed dependent.

Correct; always has been, though one might quibble as to
whether we're discussing frequency ratio or wavelength
ratio.

SR has both; Androcles' variant changes wavelength only;
standard Newtonian changes frequency only.

It is not distance dependent, except in so far as light speed might change over
distance.

If a wave changes speed over distance, either the wavelength or the
frequency or both have to change.

If one vibrates a medium with a frequency f, and the velocity of the
wave in that medium is v, what is the wavelength? Simple:
w = v * t, where t = 1/f, as frequency is specified in Hz, the
reciprocal of seconds. For example, standard power in the US is
at 60 Hz -- 60 cycles per second.

If v changes, of course, one or both of w or f has to change.

A corollary, of course, is that, since w = v/f, v = w * f. This
corollary can be used and has been used to measure lightspeed.



Measuring doppler shift tells us nothing except the speed of the wheel.

If the above wheel was set up on top of a high mountain and used to reflect a
pulse from a laser 30 km away, the reflected pulse would travel at 1.0000042c.
The travel time difference when the wheel was and was not rotating would be
about 4E-11 seconds.

This experiment might just be possible with the latest lasers, PMs and clocks.

OK. And if the laser was 15 km, 60 km, or 400,000 km away?

The laser will have to be pretty powerful if the reflected pulses are to be
observed. Also dispersion will likely make each plse hardly recognizable.
...but hte experiment MAY be possible. Faster rotational speeds may also
increase the time differences but will also reduce the energy in each pulse.


His animation uses a source 'at rest' and two observers moving in oppposite
directions. Naturally, they measure different times for light to travel the
same distacne.

As they should, if the observers are moving at different speeds.

That's right. But that's not what Einstein's clock synching was all about.
His mirror/observer was at rest wrt the source/observer.

Doesn't have to be.


A------->c------------------------c<-------B

A and B are mutually at rest.

Light moves at c in both directions.
Travel time is D/c in both directions.
Androcles is very confused.

But Androcles is also correct! Light from A-B-A does
not have to travel such that t(A-B) = t(B-A). This is
routinely observed when an airplane meets a head- or
tailwind, and is known (AFAIK, anyway) as the "headwind
problem". Another variant is a canoe traveling between two
buoys stuck in a river.

Of course it depends on the theory one is using; SR makes
the explicit assumption that t(A-B) = t(B-A). This is
Einstein's implied Third Postulate, and is not unreasonable
but is hard to verify directly.





Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Einstein's Relativity is easy to understand if one has the IQ of a parrot and a gullibility index >0.95.


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