Re: Time dilation requires physical contraction

On Apr 8, 8:49 pm, Peri of Pera <rie...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:10 pm, PD <TheDraperFam...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Apr 7, 9:05 pm, Peri of Pera <rie...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Apr 7, 9:09 pm, PD <TheDraperFam...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Apr 4, 8:59 pm, Peri of Pera <rie...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Apr 3, 12:16 pm, Eric Gisse <jowr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Apr 2, 7:55 pm, Peri of Pera <rie...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
[...]

Nope - you won't bait me into answering basic SR questions for you.

Eric,
when I asked you to answer a simple question, I used the wrong
adjective - simple. It actually is a very difficult question, way
above your level.

Peter Riedt

Nope, it is a basic SR question. Just because I won't answer it for
you and just because you can't figure it out yourself does not mean it
is a difficult question. Such style questions were frequent during my
modern physics and E&M courses.

Eric,
I am glad that you think the dilemma I have with time dilation is an
easy one. The problem is this: The observer in my example can
establish a perceived contraction of the observed spaceship to 74.53m
but it is neither a physical deformation applying to the observed
spaceship nor the observer's own transport. He also knows that the
time dilation gamma factor is 1.34 in this case. What I do not
understand, despite looking for an answer in the literature, does the
calculated time dilation affect the observed spaceship, the observer's
own environment or something else? What does it represent? Who or what
is subject to it? If you or any one else has the answer, I would love
to hear it.

Peter Riedt

OK, and this is where it would be useful for you to do some real
reading some place other than the internet.
This has to do with what length *means* and in particular with
dispelling the notion that length is an inherent physical property of
an object. People who think that length is an inherent physical
property of an object naturally (but mistakenly) conclude that if the
length changes, then some physical process must have impinged on the
object and caused a physical change in the object. And as you've
asked, one would then naturally (but mistakenly) ask why the observer
riding along with the object doesn't notice this happening.

The problem is not with the questions, but with the presumption that
led to the questions. Length is NOT an inherent physical property of
an object, any more than speed or kinetic energy is. It just isn't.

Once you understand what length IS, then these questions you ask
*disappear*.

PD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

PD,
I agree with your comments about length. This was not my question. My
question, using the example in this thread, is:
The observer in his transport at 200000km/sec relative to the observed
spaceship measures/calculates a perceived contraction of 74.53m of the
observed spaceship and a time dilation gamma factor of 1.34. Does the
calculated time dilation apply to the spaceship, the observer's
environment or something else?

It applies to clocks and other rates on the spaceship, as observed by
the observer in the transport.
It does NOT apply to those same clocks and other rates on the
spaceship, as observed by anyone on the spaceship. You'll note that
the sole difference between those two cases is relative motion.

PD,
yours is the only sensible answer so far. Everybody else is evasive
because they do not know or do not want to commit themselves. You say
that it (the calculated time dilation) applies to clocks and other
rates on the spaceship, as observed by the observer in the transport.
This is understood by me to mean that the clocks on the spaceship as
observed from any external frame tick at the rate determined by the
speed of the external frame wrt the spaceship. It makes some sense but
the question now is what mechanism filters the proper time into an
infinte potential number of dilated times and also what actual effect
has the dilated time on anything, apart from an observational value to
the observer only.

Couple of comments:
1. I'm not sure what you mean by "value" or "effect on anything". In
physics, everything relates to measurement in the end. When we say,
"this is how nature works," what we mean is, "if this and that
circumstance apply, then this will be the measurable outcome." Time
dilation is a relationship between measurements, the measurements of
time made in two reference frames between two agreed-upon events. Up
until about 1900, everyone just took for granted that, within the
precision of the measurement, measured time would be the same between
two events, regardless of the reference frame. This turns out not to
be correct, and the difference is measurable, and relativity tells you
ahead of time what the difference will be, and lo and behold it works.
2. There is nothing wrong with a physical quantity having different
values in the very same object at the very same time for different
inertial frames. A simple example is velocity. Your velocity right
this very instant has a zillion different values, depending on which
reference frame is being chosen to look at you. From your reference
frame, your velocity is zero. From a car passing by, your velocity is
35 mph. For a plane passing overhead, your velocity right now is 535
mph. For someone hovering over the earth while the earth rotates
underneath, your velocity is 800 mph. None of these values is more
"right" than any other. It is simply a frame-dependent quantity.
Physics is loaded with these. Doesn't make them less useful or less
"true".

PD

.

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