Re: Principle of equivalence

rbwinn wrote:
Bryan Olson wrote:
rbwinn wrote:
� �The basic problem with current interpretation of relativity can be
seen from considering two frames of reference S and S' and how they
relate to the principle of equivalence.
� �S is a set of coordinates at rest and S' is a set of coordinates in
motion in the x direction relative to S with a velocity of v. �Let S'
represent a train car in which we will drop a cesium clock at t'=t=0
from the roof. �In S we construct an apparatus on a floor level with
the train car floor at x=0 from which we will drop an identical cesium
clock from a height equal to the height of the train car roof.
� � � Now the train car comes by at velocity v and at t'=t=0 both
cesium clocks are dropped. �If we measure the time on the cesium clock
in S when it hits the floor, scientists tell us that the cesium clock
in S' will still be in the air at the time the S clock hits and will
register a time of
t'=(t-vx/c^2)gamma at that moment.

Scientists keep objecting to your imprecise statement there. In S,
the clock at rest hits the floor-level apparatus before the clock
on the train hits the floor.

So what are scientists objecting to?

Exactly what they said.

I said the same thing you did.

No, you did not. "If we measure the time on the cesium clock
in S when it hits the floor" is gibberish. The time "on the clock"
is what the clock reads, which is different from the time we
measure in S.

Scientists tell us that the
experiment comes out the same in S and S' because when the S' clock
does hit, it registers the same time that the S clock registered when
it hit. Then if you looked at the experiment from the frame of
reference of the train car, the S' clock would hit first, and the S
clock would still be in the air and would register less time than the
S' clock.
Fair enough.

� � � Now we look at the experiment from the perspective of Galileo,
who discovered the principle of equivalence. �We will make one change
in the experiment.
You'd be better off going one step at a time. Changing both to
Galileo's understanding of physics and changing the experiment has
confused you.

It does not confuse me. Nothing changed in the experiment except the
path of the S' clock, which now falls straight down as seen by the
observer in S. Galileo was right about what he would see.

Galileo was right in this case, and Lorentz and Einstein agree.

When the S' clock is released at the roof of the
train it will be sent opposite the direction of the motion of the
train with a speed relative to S' that is equal to the speed of the
train. � The clock will therefore drop straight down relative to S,
falling alongside the clock in S. �According to Galileo, both clocks
will hit the floor at the same time, and both will read t'=t.
O.K.

The Lorentz equations disagree with this.

Flat-out wrong. Big red X through the rest.

Show the math, Bryan. The S' clock hits at x=0.
t'=(t-vx/c^2)gamma = t gamma



In order to agree with Galileo's result, t' would have to equal t. If
you can get t' to equal t, let's see you do it.

Ah, a challenge. That clock, as you said "will be sent opposite the
direction of the motion of the train with a speed relative to S'
that is equal to the speed of the train." Thus in S, the velocity of
that clock is v=0.

gamma = c / (c**2 - v**2)**(1/2)
gamma = c / (c**2 - 0)**(1/2)
gamma = c / (c**2)**(1/2)
gamma = c / c
gamma = 1

t'=(t- v x/c^2) * gamma
t'=(t- 0 x/c^2) * 1
t'= t - 0
t'= t

You challenged me to show "t' would have to equal t". Challenge met.

[...]
Well, as I said, if you are correcting papers, just show the correct
math as you see it.

Done.


--
--Bryan
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Where is the flaw?
    ... |> relativity. ... |> | velocity of the train relative to the observer, ... SR says the back clock starts out ahead and stays ahead. ... the transformations Einstein blamed Lorentz ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Where is the flaw?
    ... |> | velocity of the train relative to the observer, ... SR says the back clock starts out ahead and stays ahead. ... |> Cassini has a mirror to reflect light back to us? ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Where is the flaw?
    ... |> relativity. ... |> | velocity of the train relative to the observer, ... SR says the back clock starts out ahead and stays ahead. ... |> Cassini has a mirror to reflect light back to us? ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: The true crackpots
    ... The passenger on neither train can see ... determine whether or not they are moving (unless you have an alternate ... Being at rest wrt the track, the clock of train A ticks at the same ... Restricted Relativity ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: simultaneity
    ... lighting strikes simultaneously the front and rear of a train, ... An observer by the railroad track will see the flashes of light ... train is traveling slower than 186,000 miles per second, and any light ... ?We will call the time on this clock n'. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)