Re: Are *observed* SR effects real?

On Jul 7, 1:07 am, Eric Gisse <jowr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jul 6, 9:01 am, mluttg...@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:

[...]



Gisse, you are contradicting yourself!
There is no "modern" statistical analysis!
You 'need' enough points to draw conclusions valid
at some chosen probability.

That's why they had four clocks. They findings are consistent with
special relativity.

[...]

So how come muon and pion beams exist? How come the Sagnac effect is
real? How come Compton scattering works

What a mix!

Marcel Luttgens

Well?

Well,

The H&K experiment was statistically not
interpretable. Moreover, neither the pions beam
nor the cosmic muons obsevations allow to conclude
that time dilation is a real phenomenon.

Gisse, you have no chance to stay younger than
your buddies simply by making a round-trip in space
at high speed!

Here is what Tom Roberts wrote in the NG sci.physics:

Subject: Armchair Physics: Time Dilatation is Real
Date: October 12, 1997
Author: Tom Roberts, tjrobe...@xxxxxxxxxx

"It sometimes happens that the mere existence
of a certain phenomenon carries with it wide-ranging
implications about the world we inhabit, or about physical
theories. In this article I will discuss an example of this:

The existence of charged pion beams implies that time
dilatation is real.

The charged pion is a well-known meson with a mass
of about 140 MeV, and a mean lifetime of about
2.6*10^-8 sec [see any publication of the Particle Data
Group. The one I have is from _Phys._Rev._, _D50_, p1173
(1994)].

At various particle accelerators around the world
there are dozens of charged pion beams, ranging
in length from a few tens of meters up to over a kilometer.
These beams transport secondary particles from an
interaction between a high-energy proton beam and
a target to an experimental area. They are called pion
beams for the simple reason that the vast majority of
particles they transport are pions, though there are
small numbers of other particles. Particle densities in
these beams can range from a few thousand to
a few billion particles per second, depending upon
factors which won't concern us in this discussion.
Note that these beams are always carried inside
vacuum pipes (to eliminate unwanted interactions
with air molecules).

One obvious observation about every one of these
beams is that the particles in them travel within a few
percent of the speed of light. For beams tuned to
10 GeV, the difference between particle velocity
and the speed of light is zero to within experimental
accuracy, independent of the energy to which the
beam magnets are tuned. This is now "old hat",
and is rarely measured.

If one simply multiplies the speed of the mesons by
their mean lifetime, one gets 7.8 meters for their
"mean life-distance" -- the mean distance a pion could
travel before decaying. Obviously these beams are
very much longer than this, so why don't most of the
pions decay within the beam line? A 1 kilometer beam
line is 128 time longer than this "mean life- distance",
implying that only 1 in 10^56 of the starting particles
would reach the experimental area (!). If this were true,
then with a billion per second going in, none would
come out for billions of billions of years(!).

To explain these beams' ability to transport large
numbers of pions, clearly the high energy of
the particles and/or their high velocity (approaching c)
must affect their decay rate. But how can the particles
detect their own velocity though a vacuum? How can
they know they are traveling so fast -- there is nothing
against which they can "see" their own velocity.

The obvious conclusion is that this is a direct
observation of Time Dilatation, as predicted by Einstein's
Theory of Special Relativity (SR). In SR, the particles
cannot and need not "see" their own velocity relative
to the vacuum (whatever that might mean). Each meson
merely decays with its usual lifetime in its own proper
rest frame. When observed in the laboratory, however,
the meson velocity of 0.999... * c causes its laboratory
-measured lifetime to be increased by time dilatation
factors ranging from ~10 to several thousand. This
easily explains how these long pion beams can transport
large numbers of pions without having virtually all of them
decay before arriving at the experimental area.

Without time dilatation (or some equivalent effect)
none of the original pions could emerge from the beam
line without decaying. In practice, of course, most of the
original pions emerge. This imposes a strong constraint
on any worldview which would attempt to deny Special
Relativity. The simplest explanation is that time dilatation
is real.

Tom Roberts "

But Tom Roberts has omitted the other part of the SR
interpretation of the apparent higher survival age of the
pions:

In the frame of reference in which the pions are stationary,
their mean lifetime *remains 2.6*10^-8 sec*, and
the length of the vacuum pipes *appears* to be
contracted, because of its velocity relative to the pions.
And the contraction factor is identical to the time
dilation factor used by Tom Roberts to "explain how
these long pion beams can transport large numbers
of pions without having virtually all of them decay
before arriving at the experimental area", and claim
that *time dilatation is real.".

Obviously, a lot of pions have largely time to reach the
experimental area without decaying, as the distance
they travel is shortenened. There is no need for the
particles to "detect their own velocity though a vacuum"!

Note that the higher survival rate of the cosmic muons
can similarly be explained by length contraction, their
mean lifetime also being unaffected by their velocity.

SRists should tell both parts of the story, not only the
one which seems to confirm their preconceived ideas,
Iow, they should be somewhat more honest.

Marcel Luttgens
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Are *observed* SR effects real?
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  • Re: Are *observed* SR effects real?
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  • Re: Are *observed* SR effects real?
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