Re: Time Dilation reduces the Speed of moving Objects

On Sep 17, 4:40 am, Darwin123 <drosen0...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 15, 10:37 pm, Peter Riedt <rie...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:> Time Dilation reduces the Speed of moving Objects

When Lorentz invented time dilation as part of his contraction
hypothesis he did so to allow the speed of light to remain constant.
He realized that if  the length  of a moving object contracted, its
time  had to slow down or the speed of light would not be constant.

     That wasn't why he made up the Lorentz transform. The approach
that you describe belongs to Einstein.> Lorentz however considered only the effect of time dilation on the
speed of light, not the object.

     You have it the wrong way around. He DID consider the motion of
an electrically charged object. He considered the interaction between
the electrically charged object and its own electric and magnetic
fields. He discovered that the interaction inhibits the acceleration
of the charged object in a way that suspiciously resembled inertial
mass. The effective increase in mass caused by this inhibition was the
Lorentz factor for mass.
     Since the effective mass of the particles increases due to the
motion of the particle, the acceleration of the particle decreases. An
entire system made of such particles will also slow down. This,
Lorentz proved also. If you make a clock out of electrically charged
particles, the clock has to slow down with velocity.
    Furthermore, the pressure on an electrically charged sphere will
tend to flatten the sphere in a way consistent with the Lorentz length
contraction formula. An entire system of charged particles will also
do so. If you make a ruler out of electrically charged particles, the
ruler has to contract with velocity.
     Lorentz proved it using standard laws for electromagnetic theory
and Newtons mechanics. However, his proofs were very specific to
charged particles. One can use his formulas to explain the Michaelson
Morley experiment, but only under the condition that each and every
particle in the apparatus was electrically charged. Then one has to
ask oneself what held the apparatus together. Systems with only
electromagnetic forces are intrinsically unstable.
    Einstein made that conceptual leap of treating the speed of light
as an invariant. This generalized the Lorentz transformation to
everything, including uncharged particles. So this explained
experiments like the Michaelson Morley experiment among others.
      In any case, I agree that Lorentz was a big time genius who
deserves more space in the history books. However, you are blaming
Lorentz for making the mistake of Einstein's greatest discovery.
That's two consequetive errors. Neither Lorentz nor Einstein were
wrong, and it was Einstein who looked at the speed of light. Looking
at the speed of light is equivalent to considering particles that
aren't electrically charged.

This oversight renders time dilation
invalid.

     No way. Even if Einstein was wrong in his generalization, Lorentz
would still be right if only for electrically charged particles. Time
dilation would exist for clocks that were made of electrically charged
particles, where no other force was involved. This would make it a
marvelous approximation for certain applications. The Lorentz model
would probably describe time dilation in atomic clocks. The Lorentz
model wouldn't explain time dilation in mesons, because mesons decay
by nonelectrical means.
   So if muons didn't display time delay, but atomic clocks did, the I
would say that Lorentz was right not Einstein. However, muons and
atomic clocks both display time dilation. So I guess Einstein was
right. However, so was Lorentz. The atomic clock displays time
dilation.
     Einstein turned the Lorentz model into a theory.> While it is legitimate to apply double standards in politics,
in physics it is not.

     In politics, I want leaders who consistently follow one moral
standard. They have to make compromises, because the world is a
complex dynamic place. How many oil wells to dig versus windmills is
not a big legitimacy issue. However, there are moral invariants. So it
is not legitimate to wipe out hundreds of men, women and children just
because the adults won't vote for you in an election.
     The speed of light is an invariant. So I want clocks that take
into account that difference. However, the physical invariant is the
speed of light.

Lorentz should not have messed with the relationships v=d/t.

       He didn't. Lorentz played with d and t separately, but didn't
put them together.
    It was Einstein who came up with the addition of velocity formula
in SR. I am glad Einstein messed with it. Otherwise, much of the stuff
we developed wouldn't have been developed.

Darwin,
a very nice answer. A small point however: why do we apply time
dilation selectively to the speed of light, the twin paradox, clocks
and everything else but not to the speed of the moving object(except
muons)?

Peter Riedt

.