Re: Time Dilation reduces the Speed of moving Objects

On Sep 20, 10:53 am, Darwin123 <drosen0...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 19, 5:14 am, Peter Riedt <rie...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Sep 19, 3:31 am, Darwin123 <drosen0...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

    Isn't this an internal contradiction? You assumed that the object
was going at 200000 km/s. That was the number you plugged into the
time dilation formula. If the speed changes to 14907 km/s, then you
have to place that new speed into the time dilation formula. Then you
get a new speed, and you have to plug the speed in again. This results
in an infinite series.
   The result is the spaceship goes at 0 km/s. It can never go at any
other velocity. Every time it starts to move, you have to shrink the
speed repeatedly until it is zero.
   Funny! The way physicists use the Lorentz transformation is they
plug the speed of the object into the time dilation formula only once..
One justification is that recalculating the rate of ticks in a clock
doesn't change the original speed of the space ship. that the
measuring instrument in the spaceship are in one and only one
reference frame.
     If that is too abstract for you, go back to the approach used by
H.A. Lorentz.
     Assume that the spaceship contains a clock made entirely of
electrically charged particles, that is somehow held together only by
electromagnetic forces. Say the clock is made of protons and
electrons, with no neutrons. The spaceship is moving at 200000 km/s.
All the particles in the clock are moving at 200000 km/s, with a
slight variation due to the mechanism of the clock. Moving electric
charges generate an extra magnetic field as well as an altered
electric field. The magnetic field and altered electric field slow
down the mechanism of the clock.
    A similar clock is moving at 0 km/s. It has no extra magnetic
field or electric field due to motion. So the clock isn't slowed down
by extra electric or extra magnetic fields. So the clock on earth
ticks faster.
     During the turn around of the space ship, there are extra
electric and magnetic fields generated by the acceleration of the
clock. These acceleration generated electric and magnetic fields
result in a speed up of the space ship clock that more than makes up
for the slow down caused by uniform motion. Sp when the spaceship
clock gets back to earth, it is behind the earth clock.
    Okay, the clocks have neutrons as well as protons and electrons.
If I wanted generality, I would have stuck with Einstein. Never the
less, you see the point.
    The electromagnetic forces would cause a slow up in the spaceship
clock even if Einstein's relativity were not exactly true. Time
dilation would exist, because all clocks have electrically charged
particles. However, the time dilation wouldn't exactly be described by
the Lorentz transformation. There is no way a rapidly moving clock
containing electrically charged particles could avoid slowing down.
Similarly, there is no way a ruler containing electrically charged
particles could avoid being shorten.  Every object in the universe
contains electrically charged particles. Therefore, even without the
invariance of the speeed of light there would be a problem building a
self consistent standard for measuring time and space.
    Einstein provided an exact formula, the Lorentz transformation,
that would apply at all relative velocities. Lorentz provided the
equations, as it turned out. However, he never showed that these
formulas were always true.
   The way Lorentz formulated it, the equation for energy of a charged
particle- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -...

read more »

Darwin,
very well put but it is not a contradiction; it is an impossibility. I
should change the subject to "Time dilation reduces the speed of
objects to zero".

    What you did was rewrite Zeno's paradox with special relativity
instead of Galilean relativity. Scale dilation doesn't stop Achilles
from passing the turtle in Zeno's first paradox. Scale dilation
doesn't stop the arrow in flight in Zeno's second paradox. The Zeno's
paradox was written by people who had not developed the mathematical
concept of limit.
     Similarly, time dilation can't reduce the velocity to zero in
Riedt's paradox. The relative velocity doesn't change because time
slows down. Riedt's paradox was written by someone who hasn't mastered
the mathematical concept of limit.
     Your problem has nothing to do with relativity. The time dilation
is described by a dilation factor, the way the distance in Zeno's
paradox is described by a scale factor. Achilles outraces the turtle,
the arrow hits the target, and the rocket ship comes back to earth
with a younger twin.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Darwin,
Zeno's paradox is a metaphor for a series of the ratio of the speed of
Achilles and the turtle. If Achilles is 10 times faster than the
turtle, the series is 9/10+9/100+9/1000etc. The addition of the terms
will never add up to 1 and theoretically Achilles never catches the
turtle. You call it a riddle that is subject to 'limits' but it is a
case of logic negating reality. I have calculated the repetitive
reduction of the speed of the spaceship due to the application of time
dilation to each new speed. It occurs at a slow pace. At the 100th
iteration the speed has gone from 200000km/sec to
0.000000046242468465km/sec. It may never come to a standstill. As for
the travelling twin, you talk as if you have met him personally and
verified that indeed he is younger than his stay-at-home brother. If
my definition of the word 'perception' is incorrect, in my mind it is
the opposite to 'real' in the context of contraction. Contraction is
either real or perceived. Lorentz and Einstein thought it was real but
now it is something else. It seems to be a shifting concept because
even SR experts are divided on it.

Peter Riedt
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Time Dilation reduces the Speed of moving Objects
    ... have to place that new speed into the time dilation formula. ...    The result is the spaceship goes at 0 km/s. ... One justification is that recalculating the rate of ticks in a clock ... electrons, with no neutrons. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Time Dilation reduces the Speed of moving Objects
    ... have to place that new speed into the time dilation formula. ...    The result is the spaceship goes at 0 km/s. ... One justification is that recalculating the rate of ticks in a clock ... electrons, with no neutrons. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Time Dilation reduces the Speed of moving Objects
    ... have to place that new speed into the time dilation formula. ...    The result is the spaceship goes at 0 km/s. ... One justification is that recalculating the rate of ticks in a clock ... electrons, with no neutrons. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Time Dilation reduces the Speed of moving Objects
    ... have to place that new speed into the time dilation formula. ...    The result is the spaceship goes at 0 km/s. ... One justification is that recalculating the rate of ticks in a clock ... electrons, with no neutrons. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Time Dilation reduces the Speed of moving Objects
    ... have to place that new speed into the time dilation formula. ... One justification is that recalculating the rate of ticks in a clock ... electrons, with no neutrons. ... The semantics of the word "perception" is perhaps a little ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)